Gal 5:1

So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law. ~ Galatians 5:1

Sophia's Story

How did we end up here?  It is a question we are still asking ourselves.  Maybe the whole purpose was this blog, to help others break free? We consider ourselves lucky to have discerned and left when we did.  We have a hard time considering ourselves “survivors”, as we were not involved very long but were damaged nonetheless. We are sure that there are people out there that have suffered much more than we have.  We hope that exposing these wrongs will bring healing and change.


As you may or may not know, Mars Hill just planted 4 new churches as of January 15, 2012.  We ended up moving to one of the towns in which Mars Hill would be planting a church.  I was excited!  I had heard all the hype about Mars Hill from my friends.  I was moving to a town where I knew NOBODY, and I liked that Mars Hill had community groups, as most of my friends back home were from church and I knew this would be the main way I would make new friends.

So we started attending the “Core Group Gatherings” about 6 months before the launch.  We were really excited to meet people who we believed to be passionate about Jesus and furthering the gospel.  We attended regularly and joined a community group as soon as we arrived in our new town.

At the community group meetings, there was a lot of “theological sword play”, and not a whole lot of bible.  People would discuss doctrine and concepts, and I would find myself trying to figure out what they were talking about.  They were using a lot of words but saying nothing.  My husband and I participated as much as possible.  We often went home VERY frustrated, however we could reason that these were believers from many different churches coming together to be a part of a new church plant, and that it would take time for everyone to get on the same page.  We were determined to be the “salt and light” and would try to bring it back to the Word.

It came time for the community group to split into two groups, and the person who was chosen from our group to lead the new group was someone my husband and I felt was the least qualified in terms of having the integrity of someone who would be leading people.  He was, however, very similar in personality to the original leader and very enthusiastic about Mars Hill.  We decided to go ahead and break off with that leader as our good friends were going to that group and we thought perhaps we could bring balance.  We are in our mid 30’s and we were actually the oldest people in our groups.

It was later revealed to us by other group members that our original community group leader was actually the “keeper of the gate”.  He actually would report back to the two head pastors about the people in the group and whether or not he thought they were fit for leadership!  This guy was no more than 25 years old!

Over time it seemed that being involved with Mars Hill took over our lives.  I found myself with the women of my community group up to 4 days per week.  If there was an event or 3 day weekend, there was something to go to, all in the name of building “community” and “doing life” together.  At the beginning I welcomed it because I didn’t know anybody, and I was so anxious to try to recreate what I had left behind when we moved.  It began to take its toll, and I felt like I needed to establish some “margin”.  I pulled out of children’s ministry, took a break from playdates and bible studies, and spent A LOT of time in the Word. 

In the next week, all the troubling pieces of the puzzle began to come together:
  • A lot of time and attention is paid to the discussion of concepts and doctrine.  This is not bad in and of itself, however, it is not balanced with the LOVE of God, the GRACE of God, and there is very little emphasis (if any) on living a Spirit led life.  Whenever I bring up the Holy Spirit more than once, it seems to make people uncomfortable.  I sometimes feel like the weird "charismatic" because of this. It seems to be a worship of sound doctrine, of being right.
  • There is a definite sense of ELITISM.  Pride in Mars Hill, and it is clear that we have the “perfect” doctrine.  There is much talk of Christians who think they are saved but really aren't or sleepy Christians who need to be woken up (which leaves the unstated concept that if they switched over to MH then their doctrine would be right and they would really be saved or that we are the ones to help wake them with our doctrine).
  • The distinctive of complementarianism seems innocent enough on the surface.  It takes a position that we follow the bible when it comes to women preaching or teaching men.  But it is a constant thing (almost like reminding a woman of her place) and it feels like the church feels a need to "beat" us over the head with this.  The thing I have observed is almost all if not all of my friends at MH seem to be oppressed and do not exhibit the joy that should be theirs in Jesus.  My friends from back home are some of the most submitted women who honor their husbands, not because a church beats them over the head with it but because they are living Spirit led lives, and their husbands are not trying to lord it over them.  The Holy Spirit working in them guides them to mutual submission, and they are able to joyfully submit.  They do not seem oppressed by it but blessed by it.
  • MH preaches freedom...freedom to drink beer or wine or go to the pub, to engage with culture, to be sexually free within the context of marriage.  However, I feel that there is a legalistic overtone to MH.  You are free to do those things but there does not seem to be a freedom in worship, freedom to operate in the gifts, or freedom to hold the elders accountable.
  • The worship feels dead.  Very few people lift their hands, or seem to feel free to worship as they feel led.  MH has basically said that it does not embrace most mainstream Christian music but prefers to use its own music and revamped traditional hymns.  They categorize most contemporary Christian music as doctrinally off.  EVERYTHING always comes back to DOCTRINE, not JESUS
  • The membership covenant emphasized submission to elder authority and being held accountable and church discipline. There is no provision for how one can hold a leader or elder accountable or question them in regards to inappropriate behavior. (read it http://marshill.com/about/become-a-member/member-covenant)
  • “Doctrinal Statement”- specifically the section about spiritual gifts (read it http://marshill.com/about/what-we-believe ) UPDATE: This link has been changed since original posting
  • That _______  was the "gatekeeper" who reported back to the leadership on his evaluation of individuals and their suitability for leadership. What if he didn’t like you?
  • Community group is spent discussing concepts from the sermon and tends to be an intellectual or theological wrestling match that does not include much scripture. When challenged often does not fly, especially if challenged by me (a woman, with a bible in my hand)
  • Hyper focus on idolatry
  •  Hyper focus on accountability
The Exodus
We were in the midst of the “Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe” sermon series.  One of the sermons and subsequent community groups talked about covenants.  The term was used very loosely, and it was explained that members were required to sign a membership “covenant”.  Our old church did not believe in membership, and so we had some questions about this.  We knew that if we did not become members, we would be limited in what we could do as far as service.

We asked some friends about the membership process as they had already completed it.  They informed us that you did the “Doctrine” series and then you did a membership interview.  In that interview they talked with you, I believe you made your giving pledge, and you had to confess a sin that you still struggle with. At some point we were told that your community group leader would “hold you accountable” (aka question you) if you were not meeting your pledge.

I finally (reluctantly) asked my husband if he had any concerns/red flags about Mars Hill.  I say reluctantly because I knew he would, and I knew that these were irreconcilable and that we would probably leave over them.  I feared that I would lose the only friends I had made in this new town. When he began to raise the same concerns I had written in my journal, we both decided we would pray about it for a while.  The next week we both spent a lot of time in prayer and the word.  We weren’t sure if we were just rebels (that spiritual manipulation thing is no joke) or if what we were seeing was our sign to get out.

The Holy Spirit is so awesome…God led us both to many of the same exact scriptures in our private times of searching.  He confirmed through his word what we needed to do (see Scripture for the Journey).

Due to the whole “will not be devisive” clause in their documents, we both decided that we wanted to keep our reasons private and not cause division among our community group by raising questions on “secondary” or “open handed” issues.  We sent an email (cut and paste so there was no confusion and everyone got the same story) to our leaders and anyone whom we felt we owed at least a goodbye because of the “close” relationships we had built in community group.

Our email was kind, we said that we felt we were being called elsewhere (we had not found another church yet), and that we loved them and wished them well.  We were optimistic in thinking that the church is universal and that we would maintain the friendships we had built.

A few friends responded passionately and immediately, wanting reasons.  We did not feel it was wise to share reasons so we said that we disagreed on some of what Mars Hill considered “open handed” issues and for us they were held tightly in our “closed hand”.  We were trying very hard to leave well.

None of the leaders that I emailed responded to me.  Our community group leader emailed my husband and asked/pushed that my husband call him so they could talk.  My husband, quite frankly, did not feel that he needed to make himself accountable to this person.  He has a team of older men from different churches to whom he makes himself accountable. Based on the leader’s personality, we knew that it would not end well.  My husband informed the leader that he was welcome to email him his questions, but that we both felt resolute in our decision.  He wanted my husband to meet with him so they could discuss all our reasons, and based on our experiences (theological swordplay and doctrinal debates) and some of the other experiences we read on the internet, chose not to subject ourselves to such a meeting.

We did not hear anything for a few days.  The silence from the leadership, and some of the people I considered friends, was deafening. I was crushed!  This was my only group of friends in this town and I felt like I was getting everything taken from me and having to start all over. I was pressed for reasons again by a well meaning friend and I came unglued (I later apologized to her).  I left for the weekend.

About a week later,  my husband and I finally received an absolutely horrible email from our community group leader.  Apparently, although we never became members, they were trying to require us to explain so they could “bless us and send us out joyfully”.  Based on my interactions thus far, we knew going to community group to be on the hot seat so they could decide if they agreed that the Holy Spirit was, in fact, leading us elsewhere was a very bad idea. 

In a nutshell, he questioned our ability to discern God’s leading, suggested that it might be our own motives (huh?)  and if so, we were endangering our family and hurting the church.  It was apparent in the email that all of the community group members (our friends) had compared notes on their interactions with us.  We had not found a new church (we were new to the area and had only attended Mars Hill), and were told that not having a church was isolation from God’s people (because I have no other Christian friends?).  My husband’s ability to lead our family was questioned.  It was implied that we were “consumer Christians” and that although we had not become members, because we were attending there we still needed to answer to them. 

We were then accused of causing division (by talking to our friends), fleeing community and hiding from leadership.  We were informed that we were being removed from the community group and “The City” (MH internal facebook-like website).  And then, after that email, wanted my husband to call him so that they could sit down together to discuss this.

My husband responded and called him out on the tools of manipulation he was using and informed him that they would not be sitting down together.  I also responded later with as much class and scripture as I could muster.  We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group.

The allure of Mars Hill is great and the manipulation is very subtle.  You are slowly conditioned and indoctrinated, and before you know if you feel spiritually dead and can’t quite put your finger on how that happened.

**UPDATE**
I later learned that we were not officially shunned.  I also learned that the community group leader did consider us "under church discipline", even though we were not members and had already left the church.

64 comments:

  1. Thank you for starting this blog. I have never been a member of MHC, nor attended a single service there, but I have some major concerns about the church and about Driscoll's leadership. I probably wouldn't care or pay much attention, except that my sister and her family are members, and my mother loves Driscoll's podcasts. But everything I've heard about the church worries me a lot. I look forward to hearing the voices and experiences of former members. Thanks again for doing this.

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  2. Molly,

    Thank you for your comment. I also look forward to reading other people's experiences. I also know that there are family members like you who have been cut off from relationships with daughters and I hope they will tell their stories. It is difficult to tell from podcasts how things actually work at Mars Hill. It is seductive. I will pray for your family.

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    1. Thanks. I am considering approaching my mother about some of my concerns, since she's not invested in MHC the way my sister is, but I'm at a loss of how to do this. I want to say something that will get her thinking and looking deeper, and won't immediately put her on the defensive or have her dismissing my concerns outright. We've never really seen eye-to-eye on politics or religion, so it's hard for me to know how to break through to her. But I am genuinely concerned about my sister's family, and I would hate to see them wounded by the toxic culture at MHC.

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    2. Molly,
      May I ask how you responded to this? I am not a member of Mars Hill, but am exactly in the same position that you describe above; my sister has become very involved with a church that has 'cult-like' tendencies and I can see if changing her character (for the worse). I'm deeply concerned, and know that something needs to be said but am not sure how - she is very sensitive, and also quite stubborn...

      Thanks, A

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    3. This story is all too common it seems. My sister-in-law has fallen victim to MH and has now cut off her family (just after her wedding in April). We're going to tell her she'll be welcomed with open arms whenever she's ready to leave that church (and by that, I mean cult) but until then, we don't want her influence in our daughter's life. I would also like to plant some kind of seed that perhaps will germinate in her mind as she goes about her daily MH business (she works for the church now) but I'm not sure what exactly will do it. I know she's not ready to hear that it's a cult, or very close, but I hope something will spark eventually. In the meantime, we are deeply hurt and angry and our blood pressure goes up every time we drive past MH.

      Thank you for the blog, and I look forward to scrolling through comments and finding tidbits that may help (my poor mother-in-law, we lost my brother-in-law nearly 12 years ago and she's since said the only thing worse than having a dead child is having a living one who hates you and won't speak to you). :(

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  3. Please follow my friends at The Wartburg Watch this week...I think you will find it helpful. They are going to tell stories and offer steps to take. Has your mother attended Mars Hill? Instead of making accusations about MH and MD, could you ask a sincere question that would cause her to think?

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    1. She's been once or twice with my sister, but there's no branch of MHC in the town where she lives. She attends a biggish Evangelical church at home, where she serves as church librarian. Coming up with the right questions is the hard part. I'll keep an eye on TWW this week. Thanks for the tip.

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    2. Incidentally, I've been putting together a page of MHC/Driscoll resources, and I wanted you to know that I added this blog to it.

      http://skjaere.livejournal.com/706665.html

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  4. That all sounds very weird- My wife and I have watched several sermons of MD's and TBH I feel he gets a lot of things right- Like one small clip I watched recently re. "the unforgivable sin", which he explained was the rejection of or resistance to the Holy Spirit. I was always a little suspicious of his authoritarian approach and boorish brow-beating though- and he does say some pretty dumb things sometimes. Also his preoccupation with the intimate details of his members' sex-lives is creepy to me. It has also crossed my mind in my more cynical moments that he is a bit of a fibber and that some of the stories he tells about his supernatural experiences may be a little- embellished.

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  5. I was brought here by the link from you post on Mathew Turner's blog.

    MH is positively creepy. I never liked Driscol but always thought he was just a mysoginist jerk. I never thought his organization was like cult until I read this and Matthew's blog.

    I'm glad you shared this. People need to know what they will be getting into MH before hand.

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  6. Thank you for this blog. Our family has never attended MH, we live in MN and have been struggling with a Mark Driscoll wannabe pastor. There is now a group of us working through this together, we call ourselves "Back Door Ministries", the name is from their "Code" where they state they want their "backdoor" working properly.

    Here is our family story....will be checking back on yours to follow your journey.

    http://onemothersjourney7.blogspot.com/

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    1. Erik Dykstra doesn't have enough doctrine to be a mark driscoll wannabe. However I would say he's a good cross between Driscoll, Furtick, and Noble.

      Folks should look up what Noble's henchmen did to one blogger by the name of James Duncan who regularly posted sermon critiques. The guy wasn't even a church member. It involved identity theft, interfering with a legal adoption, and stalking. Perry Noble's public statements about the whole thing amounted to "well it was wrong but he deserved it."

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  7. Free--

    This resonated with me:

    We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group. I have maintained one friendship with someone from Mars Hill and she is the saving grace that reminds me that most of the people are just victims of a controlling system.

    The allure of Mars Hill is great and the manipulation is very subtle. You are slowly conditioned and indoctrinated, and before you know if you feel spiritually dead and can’t quite put your finger on how that happened.


    I have such a friend and than you for helping me to point my feelings and fingers spot on to what I have been feeling, but cannot yet articluate. Your blog is a blessing. I'm glad you came to TWW.

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  8. thank you for this. i never attended mars hill, but i did attend a couple of churches that made me feel much the same way as you describe here. i've not yet been able to put it into words as well as you did here and i'm so thankful to have read your perspective. it helps me to process my own experience.

    getting out is so hard, and the painful response is too at the time, but in the end i realized that the response i got when i left was confirmation that leaving was the right thing to do.

    may God continue to bless you on your journey.

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  9. thank you so much for this. i have never been to mars hill, but i had a similar experience to your own at another church. i've never been able to quite put into words what was wrong and why i had to leave. your story helps me to do that and i thank you.

    getting out is not easy, and the way things end up going down is so painful. but in the end i've realized that the awful response i got when i left was just more confirmation that leaving was the right thing to do.

    may God continue to bless you on your journey.

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  10. This comment from Alistair didn't post, so I will post for him:

    Hi Redeemed.

    Be encouraged. I was by your story and your husband’s. Well, encouraged might not be the best word...

    I have listened to and followed Mark Driscoll for many years now (I live in Aussie too), and while I appreciate a lot of what God has done through him, stories like yours emphasise a very sour underbelly that seem to be a magnification of what I considered "off" things about Driscoll's preaching, teaching and personal character. It seems the personal sins of Mark Driscoll have developed into systemic sins in his churches, and I fear the much touted results are brough about in many instances by human manipulation and bullying more than the Holy Spirit.

    So, your story is heard. Believe me.

    My one concern about this blog is that it doesn't grow into something that is hard-hearted against those who hold similar theological convictions as Mars Hill. I've seen it already in various places. I am personally a complementarian, calvinistic, ESV reading christian, and the little sarcastic asides about those areas (because they are held by Mars Hill) are not really helpful to me. I know it's easy to associate theology with which we disagree with disagreeable practice, but it would be nice if that could be fought against.

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  11. Dear Alistair,

    Thank you so much for your encouragement and support. It is much appreciated.

    It is very much my intention to keep this blog a safe place for people who have been harmed. It is not my intention to become hard-hearted towards people who share similar theological views to MH, but the contrary! I cannot find where I mentioned ESV or Calvinism, but I appreciate the reminder. I think as humans we often clump people together unfairly, and if I have done that I am sorry.

    I actually am not sure what I "am", if anything. That is something my husband and I are constantly talking about.

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  12. Thanks so much for sharing your story. I just posted a comment under your husband's story with a few details about my brief exposure to MHC Ballard, and so much of what you have written about here resonates with that experience I had (mine was much shorter lived, though). What you both have stated about the hyper-focus on idolatry---yes, yes, and yes! I felt like "idolatry" was the only word I heard there. I have a background in social services, and every time they would describe someone's experience as idolatry, it really struck a nerve. Sure, I absolutely believe in sin, but when every problem a person has is due to idolatry, it gets ridiculous.
    Blessings to you both as you move forward and courageously tell your story in order to warn and help others!
    Sara

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  13. I find this kind of group-think to be truly disturbing.

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  14. More disturbing than the alleged group think at Mars Hill?

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  15. wow... this reeks of what was going around back in my younger days in the early 80's of the discipleship movement started by Bob Mumford and Derek Prince (and others).

    I am SO thankful that you were able to get out! It is NOTHING that is even remotely scriptural but controlling in more ways than can be described. It is unfortunate that so many people are caught up in this movement and are innocent and being indoctrinated in ungodly cult-like beahviors and programming.

    I pray that God will shake everything that can be shaken and that HIS KINGDOM will come and HIS WILL be done in every life who is part of this group .. It is for FREEDOM that Christ Jesus has set us free ... we each individually answer to Jesus and live by Holy Spirit leading ... we submit ONE TO ANOTHER in mutual submission and humility. Driscoll is definitely off track but that is for God to discipline ... AND HE WILL!!

    Praying that you can shake free from the controling spirit that came to kill, steal and destroy in the name of 'religious doctrine' ... the letter of the law kills but the SPIRIT brings life.... you have found life....

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  16. This happens in any church where grace is not comprehended by the leadership and moral transformation is key (i.e. adherence to laws). They always have to revert to law. There is no other option. But thanks to people like Rick Warren and Dan Southerland who codified this sort of behavior (micromanaging and either strongarming or finally ousting conscientious dissenters), much of evangelicalism thinks it's normal now.

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  17. Thank you for bringing into clear focus what was really going on in this church. My friends and I have never attended, but had always had an intuitiv sense something wasn't right. You have helped name that intution into logical facts. Thank you for openning our eyes.

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  18. I have come out of a manipulative arminian/egalitarian church, and to me MH is a haven. I have never disagreed with anything, because my own God-led scriptural convictions have led me to the exact same doctrine and understanding faith.

    I had it far worse at my arminian church, and I have never felt so free, I have never been as blessed as I am here.

    Maybe you experienced what you did because you simply disagreed on alot of things and wanted your input on changing the church?

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    1. Hi Anonymous,

      Thanks for your comment. I am really glad that you have had a positive experience at MH and that it has been a haven for you. I definitely believe that spiritual abuse happens in churches with various theological convictions (egalitarian, baptist, presbyterian, calvinistic), no denomination or church body is immune. It is great that you can agree with the church you are attending. I will point out though, that your positive experience does not invalidate the many negative experiences that myself and others have had.
      Here's the thing, if you read our story again, we did NOT state our reasons to our friends, or the church leadership. We realized that there were some "open-handed" issues that we personally felt were in the "closed hand" for us. We did not argue the points, we did not try to influence anyone with our opinions. We simply informed them that we would be going elsewhere. I did not wish to change the church, I just wanted to go somewhere that we felt blessed to be, and retain the friends we had made, as the church is not limited to Mars Hill, it is universal. But as you read that is not what happened.
      You specifically pointed out arminian/egalitarian. I am not sure if you think that is what I had a problem with, but it wasn't. I am not a feminist, I am not egalitarian, but I am NOT the sort of complimentarian that MH and Mark Driscoll advocates. We actually follow traditional roles in our home, not because we feel it is the ONLY way or God's MANDATE for all Christians, but because we CHOSE it and I want to be home with my children.
      There is a healthy balance between extreme theologies, it is possible that Mars Hill is not getting 100% on the theology quiz, as is no other church. My theory is that we are all going to get to heaven and God will say, "Wow, _______, you were really off on that one!) Our greatest commandment is to LOVE God and LOVE our neighbor. I don't know about you but I am still working on that one. Thank God for his GRACE.

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    2. I am trying to find the "Like" button on this post. It is beautifully written.

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  19. Right. It may seem like a doctrinal problem often, but spiritual abuse is more about power and control than doctrine. Doctrines can become useful tools to spiritual abusers because they can foster elitism (the idea that the group is superior to others) and that unifies the followers under the authoritarian leader. Elitism and authoritarianism are two signs of spiritual abuse. There are many others and they cross all denominational boundaries. Yet churches that experience them hear the same code phrases, the same scriptures used against those who begin to question and the same excuses.

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  20. I have only experienced low level spiritual bullying when going to churches that I disagreed with in regards to minor points of theology. Sometimes there just is not "minor point" to certain people. I learned to STFU and not trust people. I think many people in my current church would judge me severely if they knew me.

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  21. I have never been to MH, and do not live near one. I found this through MPT's website and found it interesting. Several years ago I had an almost identical experience with a church. Specifically, the emphasis on thinking that we had the only right theology, the way leadership was almost worshiped and the way those who left were cut off. I have now come to refer to that church as a cult because of the insistence that everyone had to have the exact same mindset and the insistence on the close, exclusive bond between members. In the last few months, I have heard many stories of abuse come out of MHC that mirror closely stories of people I knew at my church. The story of Andrew is almost identical to what happened to my best friend. What I have come to believe strongly is that there really is nothing new under the sun. MD is having his day in the sun, but it will end either through a dramatic fall, or because people will simply get tired of him and move on to the next big thing. Unfortunately, there will be more casualties as a result of the church's abusive ways, and I am glad that you and your husband have established a safe haven for those people. They will need it! God bless you as you provide comfort and care to them.

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  24. Anonymous 12:54

    It is patently obvious that your doctrine trumps your love which means your theology is problematic. Until your heart breaks for those in pain, you are just another ho hum theologian. Just remember, "the devil is a theologian and he is also still the devil". AW Tozier ( a great theologian btw)

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  25. Anonymous,

    I originally posted your first comment as I don't want to post only the positive comments.

    The response you received was not from my husband but from a friend, who, quite frankly, has grown quite tired of all this nonsense.

    My dad used to say that there is an A** for every seat, and I know that everyone will have their own opinion. Thankfully, Jesus loves me anyway, as he does you, and as he does Mars Hill. We do not all have to agree.

    I know that you don't plan on coming back here, but if you do, please take the time to read: http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-should-just-be-quiet.html

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  26. Thanks for your honest sharing - my experience with Mark Driscoll's church was interesting and I met some lovely well meaning people there. I went to visit because I love to visit different churches to practice my discernment

    Summary: I found the music empty of the Spirit of God it was cold and clangy. Mark seems like he had had burnout and was very monotone. I felt he should not be preaching in the state he was in - he really needs a break! The other incredible thing was he was preaching word for word a Rob Bell Sermon that I had heard only a few months before at Rob Bell's incredible church....(Mars Hill Bible Church is a beautiful life giving Spirit filled church). The fact that he copied a Rob Bell sermon and used the same personal jokes was scary to me. This shows no integrity at all.

    The main problem was that he continued the 30 minute sermon - which was quite good thanks to Rob - for another 15 minutes to tie it all into the offering... I find it concerning that a pastor would wrap up a sermon with a call to give money! Very manipulative way to link becoming changed and transformed which is the base of any sermon I would think to giving money to a church structure. These are very separate concepts.... they were also giving away a free book on money at the front door which encouraged 'giving'.

    So I do hope people discern as they go to any church or meet with any group to consider where the Holy Spirit is and where there is a counterfeit and where there is just an organizational machine run by a person that really should not be in authority.

    Bless you all and may you hear God's voice daily.

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  27. I want to cry. I could have written every word in your post. And I've heard every word said to you. I am in another state. Left a different church. This is so sad for me to see - but a blessing to hear a shared experience, sister. I hope He has led you to a body who loves Him and His Word - and as a result love and serve each other.

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    1. Thank you for this...and I am sorry for your pain. Email me!

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  28. I am a pastor. I am not a Mark Driscoll fan. I am not in any way tied or pulled into friendship, partnership, or anything else with MH or Driscoll. I fellowship with the pastors in our town weekly where we pray for one another, discuss biblical issues, laugh, inform one another about trends, and basically just love each other. If the pastors in a town can't be a great "small group", how could any preach God's love, unity, Kingdom, or much else. That's me.
    I have heard so much "I, I, I" in this post (and site in general) that I think we need to identify what is happening. This isn't about theology per se, nor even leadership. Those are not truly defined nor, actually, attacked clearly. There is all this inference and circumstance around a "young leader" and a "core group" - I see a deep indictment of the growing process of this church and how they have created a structure that is not actually helpful to growing the Kingdom and its Citizens. What I hear from most comments, though, is how they have "felt the same way" or "picked up the same vibe" in Mark's teaching.
    "Sophia" has had an experience which others have shared. Though there are some truth concerns, it seems that the problem was primarily structure and particular disctinctives. How this has become a website that acts either as a watchdog or "fair warning" is beyond me. You had a bad experience and the "authorities" (not Authority) of the church backed the other horse. Seems stupid and senseless. I get it. They are building a mega-structure and you guys were allowed into a "Core Group" without following the party line. That's their error. If you want a machine that runs well, make sure you have the right cogs that fit. I don't understand the pain and frustration that seems to go along with this.
    I'm certain there are dozens of community churches that would invite and bless you each and as a family. The fact that you joined this MH movement and were let down means it wasn't meant for you. Shake off the dust and move on. MH and Driscoll do not hold the reins of your life nor a patent on Christian theology and community. I meet with other pastors so we remind one another that there are many good churches in our community. When we remember we are brothers with a shared goal of sharing the hope of Christ and the truth of the Kingdom amongst His people we are strengthened as a Whole - the churches of Christ.
    If you had a bad experience you can be frustrated or praise God that no one church holds all the cards. That God in His infinite wisdom, grace and love uses many places filled with many brands of broken and hurting people, to ultimately work all to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purposes.
    It may be argued that I have done exactly what you have been doing by reading and responding to this site... That I will have to deal with. Just because you have felt any better through this process or "touched" others with your story doesn't mean, however, this is time well spent. The price you have paid to not get caught up in a movement like MH, as it is obviously a bad fit for you and many others, has been well worth the cost from my perspective. Take the lesson and move onward and upward rather than becoming a lightening rod for complaint, anxiety, frustration and every brand of "concern" that I smell all through this site.
    Don't let this experience, in any way, define you. If it has - shake it off! If it hasn't...why keep this site running for the thousands who feel crusading against Driscoll or any other church that runs at off angles to their perspective? This doesn't seem helpful... We are to never grow weary of encouraging one another towards love and good deeds...but to not enter into wearying arguments about theologies...I know which this feels more like to me. And yet here I am too... go figure...

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    1. Dear Anonymous Pastor,

      I hear you and I disagree...There are a few posts that may answer your concerns:
      http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com/2012/02/you-should-just-be-quiet.html

      and:
      http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/why-the-church-needs-to-shut-up-and-listen-a-guest-post

      We need to understand others experiences...I am glad yours has been so positive. But as a pastor it concerns me that you are missing the whole point. I have spent the day trying to figure out what horse you have in the race and why it bothers you that people are talking about this. Your whole comment felt like a "tsk, tsk" finger wagging lecture and a judgment of my heart. Maybe I am unable to read tone.
      Anyway, thanks for your comment...it actually made me think about a lot of things today.

      Delete
    2. Anonymous 10:47

      Hmm, should i encourage Mark Driscoll to write more books on sex or have more pornovision since that seems to be his definition of good deeds? It sure ain't theology!

      Delete
    3. So if there is a trend of spiritual abuse in a church (as is evident by the nerve this website has struck) and the leaders there are young hyper-ideological power trippers hopped up on macho Jesus doctrine who punish questions with discipline contracts. And if that same unhealthy church is the single greatest influence over a church planting network made up of almost 500 churches, and that same Church is using their doctrine as a cudgel to beat women into an oppressed state. And instead of pushing back against this misogynistic trend the reformed church in the main is celebrating and promoting this hyper focus on men above women and is propping up Driscoll as one of its champions... And the pastor is now a best selling author for suggesting things like sodomizing your wife as a form of birth control or expecting her to pleasure you every morning (hello sex addict!)... SOPHIA NEEDS TO JUST LICK HER WOUNDS, KEEP QUIET, KNOW HER PLACE AND MOVE ON.

      Sorry anonymous (no offense) but your comment makes you sound like a pompous ass. You start by informing her of just what a vibrant group of joyful cavorting and cajoling leaders you and your pastor buddies are in your town, Just a bunch of good ol' boys loving and laughing and sharing God's Kingdom.... That's me! And then proceed to replace Sophia's apparent I's with a whole heck of a lot of "You's" - you should do this, you should do that, you just need to be quiet, you're just making things worse.

      Maybe take your own advice. Count it all as joy that you aren't the pastor who is leader of a church with a movement of people claiming spiritual abuse and misogyny. Rest in the fact that God will use even this WEBSITE for his glory.

      I don't see how as someone who by his own admission has no stake in it, you can be the one who gauges whether or not it is TIME WELL SPENT. Whether you have the insight to decide or fairly judge whether or not the healing, affirmation, validation and sense of community some have found through this site is worthy or has enough value to merit its existence.

      Or maybe you DO have a stake in it and you're commenting under false pretense which would mean there is a real agenda behind your comments!

      I would hope that isn't the case and that you just found yourself on this site and felt compelled to speak from where you are.... But if that is the case you cannot know the details so should not assume your title or station gives you any special insight or right to issue a verdict. Though you may have thought so, there was no encouraging words in your comment.... It reads smug... maybe your tone got lost in the translation but I've read it three times now and it comes back to smug.

      So maybe look into that... People may view you as a smug little pastor and you don't even realize it....

      But in regard to my wife. I'll be the man in her life who lets her know when I think she's running of the rails.

      But ultimately its her decision and her website. And I love, respect and trust her to do what is good and right and true. I know her well enough to know she has a heart of pure gold. And these days I could not be more proud of her!

      So Step Off! :)

      Delete
  29. My heart breaks every time I see things like this. Anonymous Pastor, I have to agree with Sophia, you are wagging your finger at her and others and I have to wonder why? Knowing human nature as I do (I'm not young but even when I was, I was well acquainted with human nature), I am inclined to wonder if you have had similar accusations tossed your way. Or perhaps you are afraid you might get them and you are "heading them off at the pass." Whatever reason you have for jumping in with such vitriol, I suggest you make sure your pastor friends are aware of your feelings so you can be prayed for and with.

    Sophia, I wish I could make myself known to you publicly but I can't, there are too many people in my life who might stumble onto this site and my opinion might reflect poorly on my husband and on me, thus affecting our jobs/ministries. (The written word is subject to the reader, not the writer). You know, the internet is the proverbial town square . . . I thank you for sharing your story. I know that people need to be careful with specifics because we are a litigious society, but I would like to hear more specific, specifics. Things are a bit general.

    I will say that in a large church, pastors and leaders frequently rely on "sub" leaders to co-pastor. I'm not saying it's biblical, but it is practical, I am also not saying that it is unscriptual. Also, I would be less inclined to worry about the age (or lack thereof) of a person than the theology (you can't talk about Jesus without talking theology) he holds. I've sat under leadership and co-leadership who were younger than me and older than me, both have been good and Godly, both have been sinful and ungodly. It wasn't their age that determined their leadership abilities (I Timothy 4:12 comes to mind), it was their servant heart and their own teachable hearts that made them good and Godly .... or not.

    It concerns me deeply that MH practices the "distinctive of complementarianism" which smacks of the separate but equal laws that justified bigotry. This "distinctive" justifies an unscriptural inequality at least and misogyny at worst. My daughter was severely hurt by this very doctrine. I am thankful that she still serves the Lord; it took a lot of praying and talking to help her see that God had no part of that teaching, and that her treatment at the hands of the leadership was sinful. It helped that she was able to talk to some fabulous theologians who stood with her and that her relationship with God was already strong. This doctrine shook her to her very core in ways that nothing else had. She still has a lot of healing to do but she is on the right path to heal.

    Please keep telling your story. People need to know that there is healing when they have been hurt by the very people who are supposed to protect them from pain. And people need to know they are not alone, whether they are from MH or another church.

    God's speed.

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    1. Whoever you are, I love you :D

      But seriously, I have been thinking a lot about how, "different but complementary" sounds a lot like, "separate but equal" I am actually working on a blogpost about it for my personal blog so I am glad to know that I am not the only person who has thought that! I am sorry to hear your daughter has gone through that. I know how tough it can be.

      I understand if you want to remain anonymous, but I would love to email you, and I am sure Sophia probably would as well! You can email either of us and it will remain confidential. You can email me at kaeleemarshillrefuge@gmail.com or Sophia at freefrommarshill@gmail.com, but like I said I totally understand if you would like to keep your identity a secret from us!

      Thank you for your comment!

      Delete
    2. Thank you and thank you! You may email me privately as Kaelee said, but if you are uncomfortable just know we appreciate your support!

      Delete
  30. Church's are made up of imperfect people. If you find the perfect Church, please don't join it. You will make it imperfect.

    Forgive them and move on. They have. You are only imprisoning yourself and those you attract to this site.

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    1. No worries...I have no intent to ever becoming a member of a church again.

      Thanks for stopping by!

      Delete
    2. And your true colors have just been expressed, actually all over this website, as bitterness seems to bloom here. Satan can show up as an angel of light and his influences upon this world. Which is quite evident in this website claiming to "love and support others" and yet desiring to spew hatred towards a church that has shared the Gospel to millions. I do not attend a Mars Hill Church but think that a blog devoted to tearing apart the body of Christ is an excuse to justify unforgiveness within the heart.

      Delete
    3. Calling hurt and heartbreak "bitterness" is just another way of saying "I disagree and my opinion is more important than your pain." Anyone who thinks that sharing a story is "hatred" needs to check themselves and ask why they feel so defensive over what is simply a tale of What Happened.

      Delete
  31. Anonymous 8:35 PM

    In fact, I wish we could find the church to which you belong. Your utterly callous attitude demonstrates for me the type of fellowship to which you belong. I would highly recommend people avoiding your church.

    As for "membership," if it involves covenants, I will no longer sign such a document. They are there for one purpose, and one purpose only, to protect a church from a deserved lawsuit. Jesus didn't make people sign papers to follow Him.

    As for imprisoning, you seem to me to be the one with the rules of what to do. Some people actually care about making a difference in today's churches. I, for one believe that Sophia's site is an oasis in the midst of the postevangelical desert. She has more guts than many out there, including you.

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  32. I have friends who are incredibly influenced by Driscoll (constantly quoting him) and I see many of the same egotistical and misogynistic character traits exemplified in their actions that I also see/hear in Driscoll. I hear them (my friends) say "women are a weaker sex" in public settings and hush their wives (with a wink and a nod) when they are trying to contribute to conversations. There are pathological issues being impressed upon an entire generation of young men that will end in the abuse of many women. It honestly scares me. I have confronted this mentality many times over, yet I am crushed with each new occurrence thinking how their actions must impact their wives.

    I am a reformed believer, a male and a husband, who loves and cherishes his wife and I do everything in my ability to ensure she is protected, cared for and loved. Jesus instructed us (men) to sacrifice our lives like Christ did for the Church. There is an under-emphasis on this kind of humility, love and sacrifice in this "movement." In no way shape or form is my masculinity or teaching authority (as a BS leader) challenged, dismissed or undermined by a woman asking an honest question, making a point in a BS/CG/SG setting or working through an understanding of important doctrinal issues. As adults, civility and mutual respect must rule the day. Unfortunately, my experience is replete with boys pretending to men with chest-thumping, bravado and supposed theological intellectualism (elitism).

    My heart goes out to you women and others caught in this world of control, oppression and shunning. MH is not a fair representation of the application of reformed Theology. From what I can tell, it holds the appearance, but can't pass the sniff test.

    I hope MH/Driscoll repents of these mistreatments and Mark installs real accountability for leadership in their by-laws and protections against those in discipline. The need for Church discipline is necessary, however, it must be done with the upmost care and gentleness. The intimidation, "sin hunting" and "confess your sin history to join the Church" need to go.

    Also, I would encourage you and other "exiles" to seek out a smaller church which is confessional. There is less likely the chance you will run into the "cult of personality" that mega-churches attract and all the mess that comes with it. The PCA or OPC have presbyteries in place to over see and hold accountable wayward pastors, elders and deacons. This necessary protection ensures that people aren't (or at least not for long) held under the thumb of an oppressive authority.

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    1. Thank you for this comment...it really made my day. I may post it as a post to make sure everyone sees it if you don't mind.

      Delete
    2. I came from a fantastic PCA church and then moved to a new city and stumbled upon MH. My story is bery similar to other exile stories, and I have since found another PCA church to join. What makes me the most upset is that people think assume that MH and Driscoll represent the Reformed faith- Driscoll has concocted his own doctrine (which is the exact name of his book) and slapped the label "reformed" on it. But it's not truely reformed, and is such a horrible misrepresentation of the amazing grace that true reformation is built on. Never again will I attend a church where 1 person thinks that they have the spiritual authority to create their own doctrinal beliefs for thousands of others to follow. I am back in the PCA, with a rich and long history of established beliefs that were formed hundreds of years ago by councils of godly men and reaffirmed throughout history; not just one man's opion. I love reciting the Apostle's Creed in church, rather than hearing myself say "well Driscoll said..."

      Delete
  33. I just wrote to Sophia on her private email not realizing this comment spot was here - (didn't scroll down far enough - a computer dinosaur) The more I read here, the more all the red flags scream "cult"! Doctrine, church procedures, even heartfelt prayer, are not the point.
    I am so reminded of the Love Israel Family, which started out sounding great; an alternate lifestyle, strong community etc. etc. And it still came down to a narcissistic, egomaniacal leader. Tho Love Israel was pretty much on the fringe and MHC is an extremely conservative outfit, it doesn't matter; if Driscoll had grown up in Kandahar, he'd be bombing his neighbors into Paradise. I'm sure that there are many people at MH who have the spirit of Christ; but the church itself as an organization so plainly does not .

    Sheep Herder (real sheep)

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  34. Oh brother... I am sure you ONLY post comments that make you feel warm and fuzzy though... right? I am not at MH, don't know MH but you are oh so wrong. And even more wrong for writing this blog. Lots of churchs out there, you just didn't like this one. You are hurting the body of Christ with you blog. Would Jesus have a blog like this? If you want to be Chirst like, take down the bash fest. Oh, and get over yourselves.

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    1. I am sort of thinking Jesus did have blog like this:

      “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

      (Matthew 23:2-12 ESV)

      and just keep reading in that chapter ... there Jesus goes on and on like this.

      Delete
  35. Anonymous June 6, 2012 7:23 "I am not at MH, don't know MH"

    Yeah, right.

    Anonymous June 6, 2012 7:23 "but you are oh so wrong. And even more wrong for writing this blog... You are hurting the body of Christ with your blog. Would Jesus have a blog like this? If you want to be Christ like, take down the bash fest."

    No, Jesus didn't have a blog because they didn't have internet back then. He just made a whip went into the temple and turned over their table of the money changers. Just fyi. Driscoll is a money changer who is making quite a profit, selling his Christian porn and phallus worship Christianity teaching men to think more highly of themselves and their manhood than they ought to.

    Anonymous June 6 2012 7:23 "Oh, and get over yourselves."

    You'd do well to listen to your own advice. Your words reek of self-righteousness.

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  36. Very happy to read through here and find others who are sharing discernment's, concerns, and personal testimonies regarding the current affairs in cult-Church U.S.A. And a few words to the posters who tell you to "be quiet" or "get over yourselves":

    1.Your denial of the problem is a major part of the problem. No problem can exist under majority scrutiny for long, but with your help, it will flourish.
    Joh 3:19-21 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

    2.Your lack of care for those who have been hurt reflects your theology, and your theology does not reflect grace, Godly concern, or true love for either God or those hurt.

    2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    We would all be wise to grow in grace towards each other. But in no way should that be championed as an excuse to extend blind obedience to abuses of "the authority to serve" (which in reality sums up the only authority given to oversight in the Church). Instead, it should be to extend a listening ear to the hurt and disenfranchised. I believe that growing in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will help us all be willing ears and eyes as we read through the postings in this and (many) other blogs.

    Keep up the good work, sharing spiritual insights and encouraging the downtrodden. Jesus was always found ministering to the needy. Those who were neither downtrodden or needy always had a tough time understanding Jesus and His motives. Those who believe themselves whole need no physician, or so they convince themselves.

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  37. I just want to say that I am SO happy to see this blog. I have never attended MHC, nor will I ever. However my family and I were in a different congregation and suffered intense spiritual abuse and a very cult-like relationship with the community. We had moved across the country to help build this congregation and after three years, we were kicked out for having the gall to question the integrity and leadership of one of the pastors. We were slandered and lied about to the rest of the community. We lost all of our friends, and my mother lost her job. It was an absolutely horrific experience.

    I love this blog because I have heard so many stories like yours about MHC and I get sick to my stomach every time. I think back on how our life fell down in shambles around us when we were severed from our congregation and I know how hard situations like this are.

    I'm so upset there are churches like this out there. I'm glad you are here to offer support for those who have been through such experiences!

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  38. I currently attend Mars Hill (they took over my former church) and have been debating with myself whether to become a member. I was considering it because there are ways I want to serve that are restricted to Members only. However, when I looked over the covenant agreement I thought it was legalistic that it specifies sexual conduct and review of one's finances. That seems a bit invasive. After reading how "church discipline" plays out in a non-loving way, I will definitely not join. I really like the sermons, though.

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    1. Natasha, you are exactly the person this blog is for. Keep your eyes and ears open. Bless you!

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    2. Wow wow wow wait. They ask to review your finances???????

      Delete
  39. I've never attended Mars Hill, and certainly never will (both because I don't live in the US and because of what I've read now). I have a question though, not about Mars Hill, but on spiritual manipulation. What you said about how the leader only wanted to speak to your husband, urging your husband to see him privately to "talk" and "hear out your reasons", and also what you said about the community "comparing notes" on you both, especially questioning whether you're even saved and questioning how you could know it's God leading you - ALL of this happened to me in a completely different church.

    The church I attended is not a sect (which I consider Mars Hill to be), there was no membership in this former church of mine either. Friendships I made (which were few anyway) have dwindled, but naturally, after I left London (UK). But, essentially, this church taught scripture - MUCH scripture, from the Bible, and theologically they were sound - but there was no mention of love, grace, or mission. Like you, I felt the church was dead. Eventually I began to look for a different church but my then-boyfriend stayed where he was. He later got baptised in that church too.

    Then it came time when we both decided to move to Prague, Czech Republic. It was then we found out something was wrong. Suddenly the pastor wanted to talk - bear in mind we've been in this church for one whole year and the pastor has said no more than "Hi" and barely a "how are you" and the number of times that happened could be counted on one hand. Now he wants to talk, why are we leaving? I emailed saying we'd be happy to see him together - but no, pastor only wanted to see my husband.

    In that private meeting, the pastor questioned him - how can we know we're being led by God? Our pastor suggested that I was misleading my boyfriend (who's now my husband). Our pastor said he should not marry me (as we were engaged). Our pastor questioned whether I was even saved. He said there's no way anyone can know God's will and that we're making a big mistake by leaving England, and the church.

    My husband relayed this to me, which the pastor probably didn't realise would happen. I questioned how the pastor could know so much about us - because my husband told me that it seems the pastor knows more about us than we realised. That was when I realised the woman leader I've been talking to weekly during this time had been reporting back to the pastor. She never admitted this, even though I confronted her to her face. But what else could it have been? I asked her explicitly, "Do not tell the pastor that we met today." And she only stared at me with regret in her eyes, made no response - that was when I knew she would tell him. Everything I ever said that day to her would go back to the pastor. She defended the pastor, saying I cannot say anything and neither can she because neither of us were at the meeting the pastor had with my husband. Well, wasn't that the intention, to split us up and put us against each other?

    Thankfully God provided - during this time we're friends with a different missionary from a different church, and when we used him how we could know it's God's will, all he said was, "If it helps bring you closer to Christ, then it can't be bad! And being closer to Christ is all that matters."

    We're in Prague and have been here for 2 years now, and part of a wonderful, beautiful church with a wonderful pastor.

    Anyway, I wrote all that because, well, I wanted to ask - that church in London, the one that compared notes on us and questioned our salvation - was that spiritual manipulation/abuse? I still don't quite understand what happened - I just know I am angry, and I never want to go back.

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    1. Yes, I think it was. Here is a clue. The pastor was basically saying he knew God's will for your life, but then questioned you both on how could you know God's will for your life. Anyone who is Lording authority over you is violating the servant as leader paradigm Jesus set up. Further more, the pastor was claiming access to something from God that you don't have-"special knowledge"- a clear violation of scripture, as we all have God's word, are all priests, and all have the Holy Spirit. We are to respect Godly leadership, and seek their counsel, but when they violate the Word, we have to disagree with them, though we do so prayerfully, respectfully and with the fear of God in our hearts.
      That pastor had an issue with control and possibly insecurity. I don;t necessarily think it was all wrong that the woman leader you met with consult with the pastor about your talks, but it should be done with transparency, not like a secret CIA/MI6 watchdog tactic.
      And if the pastor wanted to meet with your fiance man to man, that is understandable, to discuss things men need to discuss privately, ok... But from what you have said, it seems it was a strategy of manipulation, to divide and conquer. Quite bizarre.
      And I hope you can find a way to forgive, and let go of that anger. It isn't worth hanging on to, and letting it interfere with your relationship to God. best to you in Prague! I am very near in Latvia! Anyways, God bless!

      Delete
  40. Christ is the only foundation we can build upon, not church, community, friends, etc. We put our hop and trust in Him, an then He builds those other things, and the gates of hell will not prevail against what HE builds. If you put your hope and trust in man, you are a headed for certain trouble! The word says this in Jeremiah 17:5

    We all make mistakes. We all have been let down by people. I been there with church leadership, and I see that the suffering I went through (like all suffering) was an invitation to know God more intimately. But my firm recommendation is to seek healing for these things, for your very life and soul depend upon it. There is no room in your heart for bitterness, it will destroy you. So, if you have been a victim, find a way above all else, by God's grace, to forgive them and be totally healed, and leave them in God's hand-He is a God of justice. Each man will be paid according to his due.

    I have learned to let God deal with such things. I confront and expose where scripture commands it, but try to humbly remain silent where it does not. We cannot try to be God for others. And we have to believe He is good and will take care of it in the end. Bless those who curse you and spitefully use and abuse you. It isn't easy, but it is a command, and it contains a blessing. you WILL be persecuted if you follow Jesus! Often, from those closest and those claiming to profess Christ.

    God is not finished with that church. Many good things have happened there, though from my perspective, it seems they have lost their way. Pray for them. God is a restorer and reconcilier, and we are priests of reconciliation. Doesn't mean you have to stay close, and trust people and open your heart to them always-there is Godly wisdom and the leading of the Spirit. We have the promise He will lead us into all truth. I hope the people who were victimized get healing and the abusers find repentance! And that if it is a cult, God brings it down! I am not here to judge for I am ignorant of all that is happening or has happened. But my thoughts and prayers to you all...

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