Walking Wounded & Rebuilding After Deconstructing

Kathy Escobar has offered to do a special session of  Walking Wounded  for those who have left Mars Hill. It is a 4-week online workshop designed to help you move through the painful and confusing aftermath of a negative faith-based experience. Please comment or email Sophia if interested. I am looking to find out how much interest there is and then we will put it together.

In the meantime, there is an amazing series of posts over at Kathy Escobar's blog entitled Rebuilding after Deconstructing.  For me personally, this is an answered prayer.  I have decided to work through these posts on my other blog, http://sophiasavedbygrace.blogspot.com/.  If anyone would like to join me, I will be spending more time there in the next few weeks.  Please know that it is a safe space, and also if you are not ready to face questions about faith that others may have without criticizing or preaching then I ask that you do not participate.
Here are the links to the first 6 of 7 posts in the series (there is one more coming):

Rebuilding after Deconstructing

Rebuilding after Deconstruction: 1 Honoring the Process

Rebuilding after Deconstruction: 2 Acknowledging Losses

Rebuilding after Deconstruction: 3 Discovering What Remains

Rebuilding after Deconstruction: 4 Finding What Works

Rebuilding after Deconstruction: 5 Celebrating What Was


Below is Kathy's Stages of the Journey chart.  These posts and definitely Walking Wounded would be a great idea if you have hit "THE WALL".

Stages of Faith

Social Distortion - The Distinctive of Complementary Gender Roles

A guest editorial post by my husband, UnReformed.  We realize that some readers will disagree, but we want to learn and encourage others to learn to stay in the room with disagreement and tolerate beliefs that are different than their own...So here goes!  ~ Sophia

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UPDATED BY REFORMED 4/23 @10:00p.m.

For years after I got married both my wife and I listened to Dr. Laura on talk radio. We both enjoyed her no-nonsense approach to offering advice, and because she typically dealt with marriage, children, and relationships, being a young couple with a budding family we felt it time well spent. 

One of the primary precepts of Dr. Laura’s moral code was that children should be raised by their families. It did not necessarily mean it fell to the wife. But simply that children being thrown into institutional daycare as infants and toddlers was an atrocity. When we were first starting out, we got into a rental contract we couldn’t afford and had to send our 1 year old into a daycare for 9 months so my wife could work. It was absolutely heart breaking for her to drop him off each morning and not much easier for me. It came to a head (in my mind) when I went to pick him up one afternoon around 4:00 and walked into the backyard to find my 16 month old son sitting on the concrete playing by himself with a half dozen other little children between 2 and 4 years old around him. He looked dejected and lonely playing by himself as he was far younger than most of the kids….. It was absolutely heart breaking thinking that I was sending my 16 month old little boy out into the world to fend for himself. Shortly thereafter I developed a game plan, my wife quit her job and we pulled him out of daycare for good. 

Since then my wife has been home with the critters. She stays with them during the day to support, love, teach, guide and when the need arises discipline them. I go out each day and slay dragons to put food on the table. In that regard we operate in traditional roles. 

However I do not see my wife as weaker or easier to deceive. If she is more naïve than me it is because I have lived a VERY hard life and because of this am supremely cynical. She is far less naïve than most men I have met and has intellectual and social gifts that overshadow mine tremendously. I dare say I admire the optimistic prism through which she sees the world and people and if that is naiveté then sign me up! 

I say all this to point out that we live out traditional roles in regard to the work place and household. However beyond these superficial situational roles, the distinction disappears. 

The distinctive of complementary roles is to me a paradoxical concept. If one is the head and the leader and the other is the helper who is submissive, where does equality fall into that equation? You always hear pastors say that men and women are “equal but different” in regard to gender roles however they proceed to say that women are more easily deceived, the weaker vessel, the helper, a good one is submissive, respectful of her husband etc…. What is said about men? That they are priests and kings of their household, and that they are the “head” of their family. 

So submissive, naïve, weaker helper is equal to Strong, King Priest, and Leader? 

Although any complementarian pastor may be getting red faced and angry saying that I am misrepresenting the issue and that men must be like Jesus willing to sacrifice their lives for their wives and live as humble servant leaders. There is still an undeniable paradox in the descriptive tone regarding men and women. Men are Kings, women are helpers. Men are Priest and Leaders, women are to be submitted. Another relatively severe problem is that Jesus came to earth because he knew that we couldn’t be like him. We will always fall short right to our dying day. So when you recklessly tie Christ like behavior from men as a necessary component to healthy relationships in marriage where you’ve already stoked chauvinistic thinking in the men empowering them with a kingship, a priesthood and executive leader in their abode….. Well then you can venture a guess that oppression is going to happen at least in a fair number of occurrences…. Thinking anything else would be naïve… and we all know that men aren’t naïve right? 

I’ve had this argument with people before and the “goto” for men (women rarely argue this issue) is Paul’s numerous statements in his letters diminishing a woman’s role in the church. 

We love to contextualize scripture. Mark Driscoll rented the entire city of Ephesus for a day and globe trotted around Israel so he could develop documentary styled video clips to contextualize his Luke, and Revelations sermons. And pastors love to bring historical & cultural tendencies into context to help parishioners understand better the power or meaning of certain verses. And we do this recklessly so that it seems you can get whatever meaning you want out of whichever verse you want. Like last week I wrote about the "tough text" where Jesus said “Do not make any vows” (Mathew 5:34) and Mark Driscoll was able to postulate that what Jesus meant by “Do not make any vows” was that he sometimes wants us to make vows! Like vows of submission to authority as members, or vows to submit to discipline from leadership..... or making vows to be leaders as part of Driscoll's RMT tour. Driscoll used “context” to establish that Jesus meant the exact opposite of what he said. No means yes in the right context!

However we steer clear of contextualizing Paul. The church loves to study the Apostolic Letters. And the church loves to impart the full weight of prophetic scripture to his words. I honestly fear that too much focus is put on them as the basis for a lot of what churches consider their ‘doctrine’. This ends up nullifying or at least limiting the power of the Gospels. And to those outside the main of the church It is a clear and obvious trend that a fair number of people inside the church seem more like followers of Paul than Christ these days. 

And it is understandable why. 

Paul spoke in clear terms. Jesus spoke in riddles. Paul said ‘do this, don’t do that’. Jesus said ‘believe in me’. The doctrine of Paul fits into our modern task oriented, productivity based world much better than the doctrine of the Gospels and sadly it shows. 

But I would dare say that, when Paul said things like women aren’t supposed to lead, or that women are easily deceived and naïve or that women should be submissive helpers etc…, you have to apply almighty context to these statements and to Paul. Not to say that Paul didn't mean what he said. I would never suggest that a man from the Bible meant something radically different than what he said! But what is his context? What was the cultural mindset out of which he made these statements? Were woman treated with respect and honor. Did men believe in servant leadership to their wives?

NO! Women were viewed as just a notch above livestock! 

Daughters were sold to the highest bidder, women who had sex prior to marriage were killed, women who committed adultery were killed, if a woman was raped her assailant had to merely pay her dad a fee and he could keep her, if a man died before producing an heir, his brother took ownership of his wife, and their eyewitness accounts were not recognized by the courts. So if a woman saw a man murder another man, and went to tell the police, they would essentially brush her off.

"Silly, easily deceived woman, what does she know?"

Paul lived right in the middle of an era not unlike fundamentalist Islam (from a gender roles perspective). And he was a celibate priest, raised in an ultra-conservative Jewish family who was hyper zealous about religious tradition. So Paul was not only living in an era similar to Islamic fundamentalism, but he was a religious cleric in that culture.... prior to his conversion.

So is Paul the pillar through which to establish the stature, and strength of women in the church? NO!

Bible based models for women’s roles in the church will ALWAYS render a stone- age looking culture because the Bible was written thousands of years ago when views towards women were crude and ignorant. Do it with anything… slaves, racial purity, racism, treatment of the disabled etc…. Bible based models will always yield something out of the stone- age, because the books were written ages ago. 

So where does this leave me? I don’t know. I know that something seems amiss about the way the church supports complementarian roles and something seems amiss in the way it is practiced. Unless I cherry pick the verses that I want to cherry pick, I cannot come to the same conclusion that Piper and Driscoll and the Catholic church are arriving at. Jesus Christ empowered women, stood up for them, protected them and leaned on them. Nothing about Christ and the Gospel's leads me to a diminished helper role for women.... Only if I have my exacto knife out sifting through Paul's letters do I find the scriptural support I need.... and then only in short little snippets which I must cut and paste together to create my framework.

If relationships within the church resembled the way the church describes it with humble servant leader men sacrificing their life in honor and admiration for women, I could/ would lend it some currency. But in my own experience, the louder a church beats the drum of complementary roles, the more oppressive its culture seems to be. 

My own take is not completely formed yet. I believe that women are endowed with and seen fully as equals in God’s eyes because of the way Jesus treated them. I do not see anything in Genesis or the Gospels that would lead me to believe otherwise. I believe women’s limited roles in the church and supposed limited roles within the home are a remnant of cultural chauvinism in society and the church and think that Paul’s writings are simply a tool men use to advance a self centered agenda. 

I know that what I saw at Mars Hill was oppressive. I know that men in leadership expected their wives to “mind their place” and that the drumbeat was so loud and so steady from the church that no one I knew was modeling servant leadership when the church was constantly telling them they were kings, priests, and leaders. Understanding that many were not leaders it seemed like they resorted to a form of bullying to establish their “authority” in the home. So in practice they were failing horribly…. I cannot imagine how much worse it would be for a single woman in that church…. Erin’s story over at my wife’s blog gives me a fair idea. 

Any man who needs his wife to be submissive to him isn’t much of a man in my book. A man is not strong if his wife is weak and submissive. I’d say anyone who needs someone they love to bend their knee to them is an insecure little wimp if they are not willing to earn respect first. Often these complimentary churches push young men and women into marriages when young men still rely on mommy to cook and clean for them.... Yet wives are supposed to honor and respect their wisdom? Because he's equipped with male anatomy? This entitlement attitude, "I'm the leader cuz I'm the man!" attitude typically yields unhealthy dynamics with insecure chihuahua type men lording it over their wives who quietly resign themselves to submission. Largely because every other woman, man and leader in the church is telling them to do so..... Your support will help him become great! Is one of the twitter comments I saw.... yeah or it will embolden him into a tyrant or despot.

And ultimately it rolls gender equality back into the stone age. Secular society cringes in disgust as the church pushes gender roles back to the 30’s, 20’s past women equality into the 1800’s with its so called “gospel centered” doctrine. Secular people are not fooled. “It has nothing to do with the Gospel or Jesus” one secular friend of mine said the other day. “It’s the frickin Elks Club with a crucifix! What a joke!” 

Psalm 5:11-12 (NLT)

11     But let all who take refuge in you rejoice;
         let them sing joyful praises forever.
         Spread your protection over them,
         that all who love your name may be filled with joy.
12     For you bless the godly, O Lord;
         you surround them with your shield of love.

A Comment I Really Appreciated

I really appreciated this comment and wanted to share.


AnonymousApr 11, 2012 02:10 PM on Sophia's Story


I have friends who are incredibly influenced by Driscoll (constantly quoting him) and I see many of the same egotistical and misogynistic character traits exemplified in their actions that I also see/hear in Driscoll. I hear them (my friends) say "women are a weaker sex" in public settings and hush their wives (with a wink and a nod) when they are trying to contribute to conversations. There are pathological issues being impressed upon an entire generation of young men that will end in the abuse of many women. It honestly scares me. I have confronted this mentality many times over, yet I am crushed with each new occurrence thinking how their actions must impact their wives. 

I am a reformed believer, a male and a husband, who loves and cherishes his wife and I do everything in my ability to ensure she is protected, cared for and loved. Jesus instructed us (men) to sacrifice our lives like Christ did for the Church. There is an under-emphasis on this kind of humility, love and sacrifice in this "movement." In no way shape or form is my masculinity or teaching authority (as a BS leader) challenged, dismissed or undermined by a woman asking an honest question, making a point in a BS/CG/SG setting or working through an understanding of important doctrinal issues. As adults, civility and mutual respect must rule the day. Unfortunately, my experience is replete with boys pretending to men with chest-thumping, bravado and supposed theological intellectualism (elitism). 

My heart goes out to you women and others caught in this world of control, oppression and shunning. MH is not a fair representation of the application of reformed Theology. From what I can tell, it holds the appearance, but can't pass the sniff test. 

I hope MH/Driscoll repents of these mistreatments and Mark installs real accountability for leadership in their by-laws and protections against those in discipline. The need for Church discipline is necessary, however, it must be done with the upmost care and gentleness. The intimidation, "sin hunting" and "confess your sin history to join the Church" need to go. 

Also, I would encourage you and other "exiles" to seek out a smaller church which is confessional. There is less likely the chance you will run into the "cult of personality" that mega-churches attract and all the mess that comes with it. The PCA or OPC have presbyteries in place to over see and hold accountable wayward pastors, elders and deacons. This necessary protection ensures that people aren't (or at least not for long) held under the thumb of an oppressive authority.

Friday Must Reads

Mars Hill Refuge is starting something new!  Each Friday we will post articles that have affected us, inspired us, angered us or stuck with us.

My (Sophia) personal favorite this week:
Well Behaved Women Won't Change the Church ~ Kathy Escobar
"Change in the church will come when women passionately follow Jesus, not systems-made-in-his-name-that-do-not-reflect-his-image.
Change in the church will come when women bravely use their voices, power, and any influence they have to inspire others to be brave, too.
I admit, it’s still sometimes hard for me to not be the good-girl. I miss the safety. I miss the praise. I miss the security, even if it was false. Some days I wish I could make nice like I used to because it was so much easier then.
But the Kingdom of God was never about easy. It was never about comfort. It was never about maintaining the status-quo. It was never about playing nice."

Cups ~ Phoenix Preacher

"God is doing two things  in your life  and mine right now…He is transforming us into the image of His son in preparation for eternity and He is using us in some mysterious way to  further His kingdom plan for the ages toward it’s consummation. Whatever cup you are drinking from is part of those processes…and I don’t think there is any other way."

Have You Been Spiritually Abused? This is for You ~ Matthew Paul Turner
"With a conservative estimate of 4,000 abusive churches and cults in America? Spiritual abuse is real, and the Church needs to talk about it. Spiritual abuse happens when a pastor or spiritual leader mistreats or uses another for their own gain. The word of the pastor trumps the needs of the individual. People are manipulated for the sake of a gospel that isn’t good news at all. The sickest part is that this abuse happens in the name of God. If the member asks questions about abusive practices, they are the problem. Because they question the authority of the pastor, their soul is in jeopardy. Often they are cut off from their entire social system of family and friends. They are called demon-possessed and told they are in dangers of the fires of hell. They are told this is love. Jesus most certainly does need new PR."


A Challenge to Mark's interpretation on Tough Text Thursdays ~ UnReformed
"So even though the text he just read said specifically "DO NOT MAKE ANY VOWS" which is 100% red letters I might add, Driscoll asserts that he didn't really mean "not to" when he said "not to" and actually God's will is that we DO make vows from time to time. I think this is a nice little sight guise into the theological misuse of scripture over at MH."


Defining Forgiveness and Reconciliation ~ Cindy from Under Much Grace
"Reconciliation is a reckoning that the involved parties make together, essentially wiping away the history of the debt. The two parties write new books, and the offending party is restored to a place of trust and favor...This far surpasses what mere forgiveness accomplishes alone."


The Ironies of Real Marriage ~ Heath Lambert
"I do not live in some sheltered ministry context away from people with perverse 
struggles. As true as that is, the Driscolls taught me a lot about pornography I wish I never knew. 
The Driscolls introduce their readers to the titles of pornographic books, magazines, and videos; 
they provide technical names for specific kinds of pornographic films; they list the names of celebrities who have starred in pornography; they even provide web addresses where readers can meet people for sex. As I look back on that sentence I am overwhelmed that a Christian minister could be so irresponsible."

"Mars Hill Departed" Story, Part 2

This part starts with my email response to "Mars Hill Departed", and ends with his reply. ~ Sophia


Dear Mars Hill Departed,

Wow, wow, and wow.  First let me say that I have the utmost respect for you.  You were there much longer than we were, but it is eerie to me how similar the reaction, including the accusations, demands for reasons, and handling of the situation by the leader.  It makes me wonder if the CCEF training for leaders includes this?

Have you been able to maintain any of your friendships with your community group?  I tried the same thing and my community group leader removed me from the city and as far as he was concerned put us under church discipline.  He forbid his wife from ever having contact with me.

How are you and your wife now?  Are you attending a church?  Has there been fallout?  Sorry...so many questions.

I wasn't clear from your email if you were okay with me posting this as a blog post or if you were sharing with me privately.  I could send you my emails and I think you would find it creepy just how similar the wording and our replies are.  Thanks for sharing!

Sophia

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Hi Sophia,

Thanks, yes, the similarities are shocking. My wife and I have been amazed at how the same exact phrases we've heard in our experiences with MH leadership are also common in the stories of others. I think it definitely is a top-down style, or even teaching, that is producing this.

We've been able to start to repair some of the friendships in our group, but honestly there weren't many to repair as our group leader's immature and controlling style eroded a 25something group down to 3 couples (the leaders). This leadership style continuously made new visitors feel belittled, condescended, and straight up attacked. Most never returned. Right now we're on speaking terms with most of them.

I'm sorry to hear that your leader treated you that way! That's definitely not how someone pursuing relationships and unity through love and truth would behave, rather it's the classic M.O. of tyrants and cult leaders. Scary stuff.

My wife and I are doing fantastic now. We feel like a dark oppressiveness has been lifted and we're rediscovering God's grace and how simply loving God is a much more effective catalyst for change in our lives. We still have many friends and family members who are very involved and connected at MH, but we're working hard not to "poison the well" or be divisive. At the same time though, we feel truth is important, and just as we would want to bring individual sin into the light, so we also want the same to happen for corporate sin. Looking back on our experiences, we do now feel that there is some serious idolatry and sin going on at MH. I think that the main idol is growth in church attendance and fame, which is a classic example of "a good thing becoming a god thing".

Yes, we're attending a new church that we had some existing connections to and we're really loving it. It's a smaller church body which has really allowed us to connect on a more genuine and natural level with others. It's sad that we were actually SURPRISED to see the gospel being preached and lives changing outside of MH... how did we ever get such prideful tunnel vision? We even have time now to further pursue real relationships with non-believers, something we really enjoy and feel called to do.

As far as fallout, we had a very hard month surrounding our departure from MH. But things have quickly gotten better as we've embraced new community and activities and have distanced ourselves from MH. Any initial questioning about our decision quickly disappeared once we were on the other side. Now we just can't believe we didn't see it this clearly before! Right now we feel concerned for our friends and family who are still there, and for those leaving who don't immediately have somewhere else to go!

Yes, you can post our letter and emails if you like and if you would post them in their entirety, that would be great. We hope that maybe they will help people see the wrong things that are going on at MH, but at the same time, we hope people will also remember all of the wonderful good that God has done through them! God uses sinners, but we should still address and repent of our sins. Our hope and prayers are that MH will change and continue to point to our wonderful savior Jesus!

Thanks for what you're doing Sophia. It's great to find a place where people can have some connections, post-MH. All our best!

[Mars Hill Departed]

"Mars Hill Departed" Story, Part 1

This story will be posted in two parts, consisting of my email conversation with "Mars Hill Departed". ~ Sophia


My wife and I have attended Mars Hill for 7 and 5 years respectively. We met at Mars Hill, got married in the church, were community group leaders, employees of the church, hosted community groups, gave regularly and sacrificially, led accountability groups, and served in numerous serving roles. We absolutely loved what God was doing through Mars Hill and have benefitted very much from their teaching.

But as the years went by, we saw how the church was changing and we eventually realized that we could no longer call Mars Hill home. Rather than tell our whole story, we thought we would just enclose the letter we wrote to our community group leaders, explaining why we were leaving. This letter is a follow up explanation to a brief and polite email declaring our decision to leave. Only after our group leader pressured us, accused us of "hidden sin", told us we were liars, and declared that he believed we were trying to do harm to the group, did we send this detailed email with our reasons for leaving.

Hey [group leader],

Thanks for writing. I really would like to iron out as much as possible so that we can have as much unity as possible in the Body. By the way, in this email, when I say "church" I mean the lowercase 'c', brick & mortar, locally organization church. When I refer to the capital 'C' Church, Bride of Christ I'll say "Body".

I'm sorry our decision hurt your feelings and made you feel slighted. That wasn't our intent, though we knew that could happen. That's why I called right away to talk so that I could explain beyond just that basic email outlining our decision. I also spoke with [group apprentice] that evening as I didn't want just that email to be the only contact or discussion.

We have talked and prayed about attending a new church for a while, off and on for several years. I may have told you that at one point we "took a break" for 5 or so months to try to decide what to do. At that point we felt it was best to continue attending Mars Hill, at least for a time, even though we saw things that we felt were concerns/differences in our beliefs, convictions and callings.

I can give more info about the differences I mentioned and if you'd like more specifics, feel free to ask. We've been careful not to call these differences, "sin", as we don't believe that most of it is. We see most of them more as "differences" between how we feel called to share our lives, preach the Gospel, reach out to others, serve the church, the role of the church, and the structure of the church. These are the kind of differences I believe Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthian 12:12-31 when he describes the diversity in the body of Christ. Different churches/people have different callings and sometimes their greatest strength can also start to become a weakness. We feel very hesitant to criticize things that Mars Hill is doing as we know that God has built up Mars Hill and is using Mars Hill for the furthering of the Gospel. We do feel ok with saying that we feel differently called though. Please keep that in mind when you read the details below.

We feel that MH's focus/calling is more on growing the number of people it reaches, often at the expense of growing mature disciples of Christ. The number of campuses, attendees, conversions and baptisms seems to be the priority at the sacrifice of maturity, genuine relationships, and discipleship. We see a very few serving and giving while the vast majority does and gives nothing, well beyond the 80/20 ratio that is common in churches. Add to that the extreme turnover in attendance we see at Mars Hill and it just makes the situation harder. One concern is that in the parable of the sower, Jesus talks about how the number of conversions don't equal mature saved souls, the goal.

* Because of MH's calling of church growth, we feel MH and it's leadership is more controlling over the lives of it's congregation, in ways that we don't see in scripture. A concern in this area is that we feel that control is more often used instead of love, exhorting, relationship and mutual submission.

* Because of MH's calling of church growth, we feel that Mars Hill is more called to serving new Christians rather than also taking care of more mature Christians. We feel that more mature Christians are leaned on more heavily and forcefully than necessary to reach conversion/baptism/attendance goals.

* Because of MH's calling of church growth, we feel that Mars Hill is appointing less mature/able leaders and those that lead through the methods I mentioned in the first item.

* Because of MH's calling of church growth, we feel that structure that Mars Hill uses for primary, intensive, and maturity-building Christian community (community groups) sacrifices/is at the expense of the relationships that we feel are more beneficial, genuine, natural and enjoyable. Mars Hill member's time spent with and choice of Christian friendship is largely decided by The City, service teams, group replications and formal CG activities. Little flexibility of time is given to those with smaller social "plates" or those with existing outside relational commitments. We don't feel that formal "bible-studies" and church activities can/should replace or take away significant time from natural affinities and relationships. Even Jesus spent more time with the people he liked best.

* For Mars Hill's calling toward training men, we feel like women have become less considered and a bit neglected.

* We feel that Mars Hill places too much control and power in the church into the hands of too little. When we first started attending Mars Hill there was only around 2,000 people but 40 or so voting elders. There are now around 12,000 people and 3 voting elders.

* We feel saddened by the loss of dozens of mature, strong, wise, experienced, loving, shepherding pastors that Mars Hill has been losing over the last few years. Many of these Pastors have been key leaders in founding the church, serving the congregation and bringing different and valuable gifts and abilities to MH. We've really benefitted from them and often knew them personally and are saddened by the leaving/firings of people like Pastor Lief Moi, Pastor Bent Meyer, Pastor Paul Petry, Pastor Jamie Munson and Pastor Tim Beltz as well as other leaders in the church. We feel saddened by the replacements of leaders which are usually immature, young, inexperienced, arrogant, and controlling.

* We feel that Mars Hill has gone from "being all things to all men" to adopting more of an "us vs them" mentality over that last few years ("city within a city", at times making fun of the city and the lost). We feel like Mars Hill has forgotten how to be as missional and speak to the majority of the unsaved in Seattle area as they used to be.

* We feel concerned by the often inflammatory things that Pastor Mark says from the pulpit which we don't see in scripture. Most recent examples: That Jesus was beaten all night, that masturbation is a form of homosexuality, that "nice" guys are bad, that Seattleites are strange to think that having a king would be a bad thing (see: all of world history, 1 Samuel 8:9-18). We've tried to bring non/new Christians to Mars Hill and they get offended by things other than the Gospel, and never want to come back. We are bothered that we are unable to have influence over our isolated pastor who is at such a high level.

* We feel sad and repulsed by Mars Hills emphasis on, fascination with, and treatment of, the gore and torture of Jesus' death. We feel like the degree to which the Bible talks about these matters should be the degree to which the Body does and that Hollywood gore films should not be the guide. Children returning from Sunday school should never be forced to watch a man representing Jesus being shredded to pieces onscreen while underscored by a band rocking out. The most beautiful aspect of all eternity should be treated with the utmost sensitivity and reverence and not used as what appears to have become a manipulative gimmick. During all of Jesus' suffering, the only point at which He cried out was when the Father turned his back on Him, yet we rarely seem to hear about the suffering He endured then.

* We feel like Mars Hill has gone from treating Pastor Mark as "one of the pastors at Mars Hill" to become too focused on him. Things that disturb us are the constant fascination and fanaticism in the church over him, the church's pastormark.tv website, and Pastor Mark main menu items on church sites. We are wary of any one man being such a figurehead and representative for our community of equals under Christ. The church has begun in ways to remind us too much of a cult-of-personality rather than a community of humble, mutually submitting believers who are completely obsessed with Jesus.

I hope these examples give you a understanding of why we have decided that Mars Hill isn't the right fit for us anymore. The reason we haven't brought all of these things up with you is that: they don't mostly involve you, we don't want to discourage others who feel called to Mars Hill's mission, we didn't feel it would have (or should have?) changed these issues. In the past we've brought issues like these up with church leaders and haven't been considered and haven't seen change.

About our commitment to the Body/church, we are no longer concerned with our membership commitment since we are no longer Mars Hill members. We have left the church because we want to abide by the commitments and covenants we make. You can call it running away if you like, I can't control that. I understand it as leaving the church after years of commitment and service upon realizing that Mars Hill, as well as we, have changed. Feel free to share my comments with leaders at the church. As I said, several of these things have already been expressed by us to past community group leaders, deacons and elders. I doubt any of it ever reached the top. Again, I don't know that it's my job to tell Mars Hill to change things that seem to be largely issues of calling. I'm not called to be a missionary to The Congo, but I'm not going to try to change those that are.

In regard to the discussion we had the other night, I've shared my concerns/questions on this issue already and still haven't seen the scripture come through that you and [community group coach] said you would send that would clearly show how Mars Hill's requirements, methodology and authority are absolutely biblical in regard to the restrictiveness of attendance and participation. In any case, it doesn't matter now. I actually agree with you on this issue, but for different reasons. I agree with the practical reasons brought up by folks the other evening, that largely being committed to one church is better for the body as a whole. But just because something is practical hardly makes it a close-handed issue. I continue to believe that visiting other Christians and churches occasionally is allowed by the Bible.

This issue of unrepentant sin has come up quite a bit all of a sudden now that we have started to leave. This wouldn't be controlling manipulation would it? If you believe that we are in sin somehow then tell us what sin you see. Otherwise, why do you bring it up?

I'm sorry if you don't believe us when we said we've been talking and praying about this, that it's been a hard decision for us or that we care about how it would affect others in the group. We really do and it isn't a lie when we say these things.

I hope this letter only helps things and that you understand that all of these things are being said in love and respect. We're praying that God will use this for whatever purposes He has and that He will be glorified. We love Mars Hill including the Pastors and attendees and we support their mission of making sure that the Gospel is heard by as many people as possible. Mars Hill needs people who are similarly-called on this mission to continue to join them and we will pray for God to continue to use Mars Hill. We should also do as the Bible says and appreciate the differences in the Body of Christ and not assume that they are simply sin.

One thing I want to make sure to emphasis is that our decision to leave has almost nothing to do with our personal feelings and relationships with people in our community group. Sure, there might be a few things we can work on together to help each other mature and strengthen our friendship, but I hope we will do these things anyway, remaining in friendship with each other going forward. None of us are perfect and [my wife] and I both still consider the [other group members] our friends and hope you will still want to be involved in our lives and walk with us as brothers and sisters in Christ. This is one of the reasons I wanted to gradually transition out of Mars Hill initially, because I didn't want it to appear that we didn't love, care about and enjoy all of you guys! But our conversation the other night was enlightening to me that we needed to not delay our decision to change churches. Apart from going where we feel called and edifying the Body of Christ, what we are most concerned about is how this transition will affect our friendships with you all. Again, we really hope we can still be close and apart of each other's lives.

I'd also like to say that, while we care about Mars Hill and would like to continue to help how we can, since we've left the church, from here forward our aim will be unity with our Mars Hill brothers and sisters in Christ and we'll try to avoid engaging in "quarreling over words" or "irreverent babble" like Paul talks about. I'm sure you all know that I have a tendency to babble ; )

Thanks for taking the time to read this long letter.

Let's talk soon,

[Mars Hill Departed]