I had more questions about Christianity and even things at Mars Hill but because of my friend's leadership at Mars Hill, I noticed I was becoming more popular also. I didn't want to lose that "fame" (sick I know). I wanted to do Children's Ministry but the only way to volunteer was to become a member. I didn't know what any of that meant so I just signed up. No one walked through that process with me. I didn't even know what covenant meant but I was going to find out soon enough. My friend started a ministry called REST that I got plugged in with. It was exciting and I still support the ministry in the sense that they help those girls involved with sex trafficking. I am no longer volunteering with that team but I do pray that more women on the streets meet Jesus. I was continuing to get plugged in in everything I could. Then I realized that those ministries became more important than my relationship with Christ. My friend was still my mentor at this time and I stayed in REST because of my passion for that industry and because she ran the ministry. I told my friend that I wanted to switch to the street team and felt more called to that team. She wouldn't let me. I even looked at other organizations because I wanted to be with the women who are involved and help them. My friend was mad and told me I wasn't to go to another organization. This is when I started feeling control taking place. This is all within the first year also.
In 2010, my community group got so big that they had to split into two groups. I wanted to stay with my original leaders because they knew me and I trusted them. Three members of that group including one of the leaders told me that I needed to go to the new group forming. I didn't want to because a single man was leading the group and I felt uncomfortable. I was raped about 5 years ago and I still have some healing to do so I protect myself against single men especially when their is some sort of "dominance" or "control" placed to them over me. My community group wouldn't listen and they told me to join that group. This is where things started to get out of control. A female stepped up and co-lead. We were cool but we didn't get along too well. I would express my concern to others and tell them that this was not the best fit for our growth in Christ. Of course, no one listened and I was told that it was "my heart". I prayed about it a lot and knew this community group was not the place for me. I wanted out. A new church plant was coming and I signed up asap to get out of my community. It didn't work. My community wouldn't let me go at all.
During 2010, I was called into a meeting and was told I had to step down from all ministries because I talked about them too much. Isn't that the point??!! To talk to others about them so other people want to join?!?!! According to Mars Hill, only certain people aka leaders are allowed to talk about ministries it seems. I was told I had to step down from all serving asap and start meeting with my community group leaders one on one each week. I did as I was told because I knew that if I fought the idea, they would get more people involved. This was towards the end of 2010. I met with the leaders each week as I was told. At this time. I met a girl who went to the University District campus. I had such a heart to walk with her so I started to attend that campus. I felt really called to be there. I loved it. I wanted to walk with college age girls about their idenity. I know what it is like to be a college girl who gets lost in the the whole mix especially regarding guys. I kept attending the UD campus. I didn't mention this to my community group right away because I knew they would not let me go. I was right. When they found out they told me that I had to be at the downtown campus. This was the beginning of 2011.
At this time, I met a guy who now is my husband. We knew right away we wanted to be together. It was great. We both loved that campus and wanted to be part of the life there helping others. My community group was not having it and said that he is wrong for not finding my community group leaders to see if he could date me. They continually told me that we had to be at the downtown campus. Our campus pastor even said we could go to the UD Campus but my community group leaders said no. My now husband started to attend my community group to make them happy. During one meeting, we spilt into guys and girls. He wanted to participate and told another man he could relate to his struggle. He was told right away that he was not suppose to talk out of turn. Brooks (my now husband) thought that was weird and didn't feel right about the group. He would start making excuses on why he couldn't go to community group anymore. We almost broke up because of it. I wasn't sure what was going on. We were so happy. I soon realized that he was getting weird vibes from that church.
We stayed together during this process but slowly started to slip out of community. We started to fool around a little bit. Yes we sinned and soon found ourselves crying to each other and repenting. When the church found out I was called into meetings. Brooks never had to go and I know now it was because he was not a member. Smart man. I was told to meet with a few people from my church and I was completely honest with everything. I was told I was lying and making excuses. For as much as I confessed I was shocked and then pissed. I was told I had to meet with a Pastor. I refused because I confessed everything and was walking out repentence. To them, it was not good enough. I knew at this point they would going to do everything in their power to break Brooks and I up. We made a plan to leave that church because we knew that we were walking in the light and walking away from sin.
This is where it started to become what I would define a cult. Brooks and I continued to see each other every day. Because I refused the meeting, my phone would not stop ringing from pastors, leader, and community group members. My community group leader even went to my facebook page and contacted every single person that I was talking to that attended Mars Hill, to educated them on me "living in sin". A few girlfriends called me and were so confused on what was going on. They also felt the church and my community group leader were stepping over their boundaries. So after I talk about my community group leader reaching out to those on my facebook, she along with the biblicial living counselor and a pastor told those that were talking to me could no longer talk to me and could not reach out to tell me. This included my best friend.
She would not respond to my texts or calls. Finally I got a text from her saying "We can only talk if you talk to me and our pastor together". I knew she was told what to say because that did not sound like my best friend. Her 30th birthday was coming up and we had been planning it for years. I feared we weren't going to celebrate it. I reached out to her and no response. Finally her birthday came and on facebook I saw many people from the church telling her that they can not wait to celebrate with her, including our community group leader. I was pissed. I was so hurt and I cried for days. About a week later her husband called me out of the blue and said "Erin, I fear you had to have no idea that we were told that we cannot contact you".
I cried a lot. I told him how much I miss my best friend and he said she misses me to but is not allowed to talk to me. I was so mad. I emailed the pastor and he denied the whole thing. He said that he would never say anything. I threatened with a lawyer because this was getting beyond controlling. The church shut down my City (social networking site) instantly and deleted any and all emails that were taking place so I couldn't have any evidence.Every day, at least three voicemails were left on my phone. I deleted the messages because I knew I didn't want to be part of that church. Brooks and I decided in the summer to take a break. I was stupid and contacted the church to apologize. I never intended really on going back to the church but wanted to say I was sorry to them. My friend who was my mentor reached out to me and we met up. She went on and on about how Brooks was probably not a Christian and was potentially a wolf. What!?!?! He was born and raised a Christian and loves Jesus but at Mars Hill they always blame the guy for everything. So she asked me to go to church with her that weekend. I didn't want to. I didn't want to go back there. She told me that I needed to find our Biblical living counselor and our pastor and ask for forgiveness and see if I can come back. I did what I was told. Brooks and I had not been talking really but he wanted to come over that day. Of course I didn't tell anyone. They would freak out. As I was sitting at the downtown campus next to my mentor, I remember thinking to myself "I am never going to be able to leave this church".
Brooks came over that day and we cried with each other. Man we love each other but wanted to give it a little more time to see if this is what God wants for us. He left to go to the UD campus. 4 days went by and we met up again. We both again, told each other how much we loved each other and wanted to make this work one day. I knew that the church was going to freak out. I had a meeting in a few days with a bunch of people and I knew that I couldn't tell them I was seeing Brooks. I went to that meeting on a Monday. That night the Biblical counselor told me he wanted to check all my text messages to make sure I wasn't talking to Brooks. Control- I think so! I said that I deleted them all. They told me that I was not allowed to see or talk to Brooks. Little did they know, I had plans with him that night. The community group leaders were there and I was told to reconcile with one of them. When I did, the Biblical living counselor told me I did it all wrong and was going to show me what to say and do. I had to do exactly what he said. I was so pissed at this point. I left and headed to Bellevue to see Brooks. Again they didn't know. Brooks asked me back out that night and of course I said yes. I knew we had to leave the church if we wanted to be together.
Brooks came over that day and we cried with each other. Man we love each other but wanted to give it a little more time to see if this is what God wants for us. He left to go to the UD campus. 4 days went by and we met up again. We both again, told each other how much we loved each other and wanted to make this work one day. I knew that the church was going to freak out. I had a meeting in a few days with a bunch of people and I knew that I couldn't tell them I was seeing Brooks. I went to that meeting on a Monday. That night the Biblical counselor told me he wanted to check all my text messages to make sure I wasn't talking to Brooks. Control- I think so! I said that I deleted them all. They told me that I was not allowed to see or talk to Brooks. Little did they know, I had plans with him that night. The community group leaders were there and I was told to reconcile with one of them. When I did, the Biblical living counselor told me I did it all wrong and was going to show me what to say and do. I had to do exactly what he said. I was so pissed at this point. I left and headed to Bellevue to see Brooks. Again they didn't know. Brooks asked me back out that night and of course I said yes. I knew we had to leave the church if we wanted to be together.
Long story short, the church kept contacting me and they finally "allowed" Brooks and I to date. This was after a pastor called me and I told him I would meet him later but he decided to stalk us and went to the UD campus that night to confront us. Creepy. We had to attend a meeting with that campus pastor and the pastor that stalked us. We were told pretty much that they were going to break us up but needed 24 hours. They said "Erin, will you promise to do everything we say". I just said yes to make them happy. I was so hurt at this point. I was going to lose Brooks again I thought.
Brooks and I decided to leave Mars Hill and go to his home church. After a month, there was a date night with Pastor Mark and Grace. We went and really liked the Bellevue campus. We both thought we would give it another shot. I reached out to a pastor to tell him we were going to attend the Bellevue campus and wanted to start over. We got back into community and really liked our community group. I was trying so hard to let things from my past go about the church but this group and campus proved to be the same. When we got engaged we were told we had to go through Mars Hill Premarriage. We were being married by another pastor and didn't want to go through Mars Hill. Because of that, a pastor contacted us and told us that they needed to "examine" our relationship. We decided at that point, that things were starting to get a little weird again but wanted to try to give it the benefit of the doubt.
When Brooks and I decided not to go through their counseling, we were notified that we were no longer allowed to be part of the church. We had to leave the church right away and find a new community outside of Mars Hill. Since then, we have never been happier. Our relationship is happier and healthier than ever. I still feel scarred by Mars Hill and a lot of the people that attend there. I share my story because I want freedom for others at the church. I am sure I could find tons more examples to share but I am sure this is enough. If you feel something isn't right and you aren't allowed to question it, that's wrong. I pray that others find freedom outside of Mars Hill.
Dear Erin, Thank you for sharing your story. I am so glad that you and your husband have been able to get away from such a controlling nightmare of a place. May you continue to heal in peace and freedom.
ReplyDeletex Estelle
Thank you so much, Estelle. I pray that God leads us to a gospel centered church soon. We have spent about 6 weeks outside of a church because Mars Hill is what we knew and supported. I had heard the horror stories before and many Christians have been telling me for years to leave but I continued to support and defend the church. I am glad I finally am free and able to truly walk in the light.
DeleteErin, I am so sorry that you had to suffer this way. One thing for sure is that God has shown you many red flags of the disturbances of Mars Hill. Thank God that your husband Brooks saw it in the very beginning. I pray that this experience will make you wiser, stronger, and more discerning to see what is of God and those wolves in sheeps clothing that creeps in the churches. Interesting, how Mars Hill looks so attractive in the outside and once you become a member these wolves teeths (leaders) starts to manifest.
ReplyDeleteSet yourself aside and pray. Wait upon the Lord to guide you and guide you to ALL TRUTH.
Fall in love with God's Word. You belong to Jesus. Jesus will fight for you till the end. He has chosen you to be HIs alone. God's promised is true and man has a way to twist Scriptures for their personal gain and ambition.
Be a Berean now and search the Scriptures.
God blessing upon you and Brooks.
Wow, what a story. I'm so struck at how quickly your intuition kicked in that something wasn't right here. It makes me angry that Mars Hill offers community, love, acceptance, etc, but requires them to compromise their dignity and integrity to receive those things. They might not be fully aware of their manipulation and control, but they're still doing it.
ReplyDeleteYes and my intention of this blog was only for that leaders come together and see how they can love and serve the church members better without control. It was a big deal for me to post this and honestly, I will take it down at some point. My intent was never to hurt people but hopefully open the eyes of the leaders to come and read what happened. I have reached out to my pastor today. I still love him and his family but just hurt by the actions that took place. I hope that leaders take time to read, not just my story, but others so that they can come together to talk about where they have sinned also. Leaders are not perfect. Neither am I. I need Jesus just as much as them. I pray that this post brings leaders together to talk about ways to love the church attendees and members better.
ReplyDeleteErin,
DeleteFirst I want to say thank you for your bravery kiddo. I know being at ground zero you are probably going to get some blow back from your Mars Hill friends. I guess reading this story it is a little heartbreaking that after repeatedly overstepping their bounds and inserting themselves in your life over and over again.... You kept going back and from the tone here, it seems as though you haven't yet grasped just how sick and unhealthy the Mars Hill ministry is.
If you come across one loose cannon at a church, that is one thing. But you had at least 2 community group leaders, 3 pastors, a biblical living counselor, a redemption group leader and your mentor all exerting a cult like manner of control over you.
I guess what worries me, for you, is that you kept going back and they ultimately were the ones who sent you packing. You are meeting with one of the pastors today.... I wonder if they opened the doors to you again if you wouldn't justify their previous behavior and walk back in?
Here is what I saw.
Your CG leader baited you into redemption groups
Your CG leader demanded your boyfriend attend MH
Your Redemption Group leader told you you can't date,
Your mentor told you you can't be involved in any other ministries,
Your CG leader forced you to go to a specific Community group
Your CG leader forced you to step down from all ministries
Your CG leader demanded that you meet with pastor weekly
You met with the pastor weekly as told
Your CG leader would not ALLOW you to attend at U-District
Your CG leader expected your boyfriend to ask their permission to date you. (AS THOUGH THEY HAD REPLACED YOUR FAMILY!)
Your CG demanded you start meetings with pastor (but you refused)
Your CG leader WENT ON YOUR FACEBOOK PAGE AND CONTACTED EVERYONE! letting them know you were living in sin
Your CG leader instructed everyone to shun you when you confronted them about Facebook.
Your Pastor denied directing people to shun you even though your friends husband affirmed that he was not allowed to contact you
Your pastor cut off your City access the moment you invoked "lawyer"
Your "Mentor" said your BF was a wolf
Your "Mentor" demanded that you meet with Biblical living counselor
Your Biblical living counselor tried to screen your private text messages
Your campus pastor stalked you at U-District
Your old and new campus pastors demand that you do "everything they say"
You get plugged in with Bellevue and he demands to "examine" your relationship
And yet after all of this. After some of the most disturbing behavior I have ever heard of from a church. A grotesque display of cult like behavior on a systemic level from multiple leaders... THEY THREW YOU OUT!
I don't say this to hurt you. I guess I say it so you really, really understand the gravity of what was done so you are less susceptible to be sucked back into it, and so that when they descend on you to demand that you be "reconciled" or justify yourself.... You truly believe in yourself and your perspective.... You absolutely should, you experienced one of the most gnarly stories I've ever read, bar none, but theirs a matter of fact way that you comment to it and tell the story that I am not entirely certain whether you are TRULY FREE from it. Like I said, if someone up high in the ranks at MH came and said bygones wanna come to U-District, it seems that you would.
I will hope beyond hope and pray that you are truly free.... I guess my advice is not to expect these leaders to come running hat in hand on bended knee to say sorry.... I would advise you to expect MH to attempt every trick in the book to guilt, shame, spit condemnation on you... Oh they will be asking you to search your heart for sure to justify your motive.
But I am grateful that God got you through that and I am certain God will bring you through this..... and I thank God for you and your courage.... Much respect and admiration.
Thank you so much. I have no intention of going back unless all the control was gone but that would be years from now. By then, I will have a new church and a new community. Thank you so much for pointing out all the highlights. I need a reminder how bad it really was. I am hurt and confused. It's hard to trust another church. I feel like I want to hide but Jesus wouldn't want that. Thank you again so much!!
DeleteUnreformed: I love the way you pointed this all out. It was thoughtful, loving, kind, and precise.
DeleteErin: What a humble heart. Thanks for sharing your story!
You are very brave to share Erin. You don't have to fear the leadership at MH anymore. They hold no authority over you. Please don't feel sorry about sharing your story. You have such a tender heart. The leaders at MH are fully aware of their choices and their sin. You were the victim. It's harsh to think but really you have not hurt them by leaving or telling your story. You are just another number that doesn't belong because you obeyed God and not MH leaders. We spent many years at MH and were heavily involved. We had an easier exit but it was painful because we thought these people were friends, brothers and sisters in Christ. Yet we were treated horribly, shunned and ignored. Praise Jesus he opened you and your husbands eyes in a short time.
ReplyDeleteI so agree with you. What echoes in my ears is what Mark said, "get them while they are young."
DeleteAnd discipline them by breaking their noses. I pray that you and Brooks stay close to Jesus bossom.
Books I recommend to you:
SuBtle Power of Spiritual Abuse -by David Johnson
Who's Pulling Your Strings (about manipulation)- by Harriet B. Braiker
Kingdom of the Cults-by Ravi Zacharias
God bless you and May He Protect your soul.
I will keep you in my prayers, along with Mars Hill Refuge.
Hi Erin. Stay strong. Do NOT go back. There are so many loving churches and communities out there... Mars Hill is NOT one of them.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget, at the end of the day, Jesus is always in your heart. As long as you live a good life, love, forgive yourself and others, and love Jesus, you have nothing to fear and nothing to prove. Giving your time and energy to a church is a wonderful decision but do so for the right reasons. Not all churches are loving and you know this firsthand. Don't doubt yourself! You will always have Jesus.
Stay strong. :)
I really admire your perseverance.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've noticed that is a reoccurring theme here is that once you become a member of Mars Hill, they seem to take over all the aspects of your life. I don't agree with that, at all. You should have a right to date who you want to date and be married by the pastor of your choice, and seek premarital counseling as a choice, not a requirement.
Mark always says Mars Hill isn't legalistic - but how much more legalistic can you get???
Erin, by chance is this one of the cases where "Mars Hill leadership overstepped it's spiritual authority?" I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but I can't be sure because this seems like a case of "overstepping authority" or serious mental/psychological control.
ReplyDeleteyes for sure. I feel really manipulated by them. A year ago I tried to leave the church and they wouldn't let me. A pastor at the bibical living counselor made me meet up with them to "talk" about me leaving. They ended up convincing me to stay. I left and got into my car and said "crap! they did it again". I was "tricked" into staying. I know it sounds so crazy and I never thought it could happen to me but to answer your question, yes Jeremy I believe they overstepped their boundary by a lot. This many stories would not be available if it was just one or two people "thinking it's control". There are way too many stories to PROVE it's control. Scariness. Do you go there?
ReplyDeletewell, what I'm asking is is this one the two cases mentioned near the end of this post where "Mars Hill stepped in to investigate?" http://marshill.com/2012/02/13/a-response-regarding-church-discipline
DeleteThis is the first time Erin's story has been shared (Monday April 16th). They were (at least implying) that there investigation was directly related to the "Andrew" story after it got run in the press all the way to Slate magazine and "Lance's" story which he released in The Stranger article "Church or Cult".
DeleteEither Mars Hill was lying or Erin's story is unrelated.
"The Stranger".
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/church-or-cult/Content?oid=12172001&show=comments&sort=desc&display=
Slate Article
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2012/02/mars_hill_pastor_mark_driscoll_faces_backlash_over_church_discipline_case_.html
The comment that you are referring to was in the Christianity Today article and on MH's 2/13 Response Regarding Church Discipline (http://marshill.com/2012/02/13/a-response-regarding-church-discipline)
Delete"In both cases that have been brought to light, things did not go as they should have, and well before they were ever written about in a public setting by bloggers and journalists, Mars Hill leadership stepped in to investigate. As a result of those investigations, it was determined that the leaders involved had a pattern of overstepping their authority. As such, they were released and are no longer on paid staff or in formal leadership in any capacity at Mars Hill Church. Again, these actions were taken months ago, prior to any public exposure."
I knew the moment I read this that these statements were lies. I confirmed with Andrew that these pastors were released months before the his situation occurred. I think this happened because Mark Driscoll and other leaders at MH delegated the responsibility for responding to these issues to a youngish, uninformed staff member who didn't know anything about the actual events. This youngish staff members was told what had happened (probably told not to ask many questions) and asked to write up a response. I am sure that some senior staff reviewed the release before they pushed it public and decided that it was good enough, though not entirely accurate.
My understanding is that one of the two fired leaders was Pastor Noriega (also the father of Andrew's fiance). He was investigated by way of interviews (e-mail, phone, in person) with 30+ people who he had counseled over the years and the church found a history and trend of spiritual abuse. On the positive side, it is impressive that Mars Hill investigated and FINALLY took action to remove this man from leadership. On the sad side, I doubt they have reached out to the many, many people he counseled over the years to seek reconciliation, restoration, or an apology.
Mars Hill and Christianity Today have retroactively corrected the claim that the two released pastors were related to Andrew's situation.
The sad thing is I don't think Noriega was fired :( I just talked to my old cg leaders who were trying to say that Mars Hill did take care of those involved in Andrew's case and that's not true. I don't talk to my cg leaders or really any one from Mars Hill anymore but honestly, Mars Hill is lying about firing leaders. I really doubt anyone got fired. I think Mars Hill said that so many other members don't leave. They want to look humble but I don't buy into it anymore....
DeleteIn about a decade James Noriega went from jail bird with four felonies on his back to co-founder of Redemptions Groups at Mars Hill. Union Gospel Mission put him on staff, Doxa made him “ordained” and Mars Hill made him master of his own vulnerable kingdom.
DeleteIn comparison it took at least three generations and a lifetime of study and prayer to produce Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., it took at least two generations, a very praying father, and at least the usual PhD. Study time to produce Dr. James Dobson.
King and Dobson did what they did (are doing) as seasoned studied mature Christians. James Noriega looks to me to be a novice at best.
And so now we know why it says:
“Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”
At Mars Hill, mature Christians are not likely to last long, so they choose novices. That is extremely hard on the people, and the persons they place in high position. James Noriega hurt me much, yet I can see that Mars Hill hurt both of us my not doing what it says!! I hope that he and his family can eventually find peace.
I did not know about Noriega's felonies. Could you point me to the source for that? I do know that he should never have been a pastor and should never have been allowed to counsel one on one with individuals as he is deceitful, manipulative, and spiritually, emotionally and verbally abusive. What's odd is that I have friends who have seen moments where he seems to have some gifting in discernment and counseling. Unfortunately, he seems to have as many moments where is mistakes his own ideas for leading from the Holy Spirit (but when it is not) and he chooses to bully and manipulate in order to "break" someone in ways that are unkind, unloving and not Christlike.
DeleteErin - I can confirm that Noriega was fired. It was announced to the entire Ballard campus back in the Sept/Oct/Nov timeframe that he had been released and had chosen to stay at the church as a member but would never again be a pastor or leader within MHC.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Path-through-despair-and-redemption-led-to-1160587.php#page-2
DeleteThere's been a surprisingly large number of public references to Noriega inside and outside MH over the last few years. Unlike Lief Moi a wholesale information scrub has not been pulled off yet. Here are some links I've found so far:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Path-through-despair-and-redemption-led-to-1160587.php
This 2004 Seattle P-I article was the earliest documented story I could find about him. Next reference I found was a 2007 Driscoll sermon.
http://marshill.com/media/rebels-guide-to-joy/the-rebels-guide-to-joy-in-humility#transcript
Next A. J. Hamilton referring to Noriega as the "James" from Doxa.
http://marshill.com/2010/10/07/when-mars-hill-became-multi-campus-church-2006-present
Then a reference from Mike Wilkerson in a Driscoll interview on Resurgence from 2011.
http://theresurgence.com/2011/01/29/mark-driscoll-interviews-mike-wilkerson-on-his-new-book
But by February 2012 Noriega is not mentioned.
http://pastormark.tv/2012/02/28/why-we-started-redemption-groups
I pray that you and Brooks stay close to Jesus Christ and your relationship is strengthened by Him. I wish this story surprised me. Sadly, stories like these don't surprise me. While my story is no where near as horrific, I was dating a girl in Mars Hill when I attended there. I met her at the church. We dated a little bit, but she was told by her community group leader she wasn't supposed to be dating and ended the relationship.
ReplyDelete:( that's horrible. It's so hard because it's like we are brainwashed. They didn't want me to date Brooks and I ended up marrying him instead. :)
DeleteRe: James Noriega's counseling advice:
ReplyDeleteMy daughter went in for counseling about an issue she was having with her grandmother. I happened to be in town and because we had such a great relationship, she asked me to join her. In the middle of our conversation, James asked my daughter what she thought of the relationship between me and herself. " It's great! I love my mom." James looked at both of us and said, (and I do quote)"You know Sallie, you look like your mom, you sound like your mom and you respond like your mom. You need to divorce your parents". I was so stunned by his choice of word "divorce" that I didn't know what to say. My husband and I live 100 miles away from our daughter; we are far from being too involved in her life. Now, a few years later, I understand the tactics of MH pulling kids away from their folks.
As the conversation progressed, Sallie divulged that both she and I had been molested by the same man. James absolutely went ballistic and said, "We are going over there tonight! We are going to confront him right now! This man needs to acknowledge his sin at this moment!"
I managed to blurt out that there was no way I was going to do this and certainly not with a stranger as my ?"guide". James didn't even know this person. I stated that I knew for a fact that this man owned a gun and this wasn't how you approach alleged assault perpetrators. James' advice stunk. He is certainly not a trained counselor.
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2012/04/excerpts-from-two-seattle-p-i-articles.html
ReplyDeleteAt the above link I managed to find two different Seattle P-I articles that seem to confirm a good deal of what Unknown wrote. Noriega was mentioned in an article getting baptised in June 2004 and was described as already ordained (newly so) as a pastor by Thanksgiving 2004.
James Noriega is literally thought to be a PROPHET by insiders at the church including Driscoll. He has some talents maybe? But I do not believe it is something God breathed because of his messiah complex behavior. People who at one time I respected as straight shooters developed cranial inversion so bad they hung on his every word or command.
ReplyDeleteHe is a sick person who causes much harm. I find it repulsive that he was initially put in charge of a vulnerable group of people - recovering addicts and alcoholics (the original Chemical Dependency Ministry is more currently termed Redemption Groups for a myriad of maladies). Despite the medical standard of abstinence for those in recovery - he was "cured by Jesus" of his past history with meth and openly drank at functions. (Not sloppy drunk but more than one drink). It sent the wrong message from my viewpoint given those he was to be setting an example for. While many have mixed feelings about 12 Step for valid reasons (i.e. the court ordered attendees who are only there to get a slip signed, etc.) at least they don't sell themselves as being the right hand of God. He blasted AA/NA constantly as being a cult and discouraged any in his charge from being around that program.
Despite being unqualified to be a leader by Biblical standards... qualified men without his anger management issues (too put it mildly) were ousted in favor of Noriega.
Why?
Money money money mone-ay.
He is very effective at scaring the daylights out of people and was a very integral part of the acquisition of the valuable MHC West Campus property.
But didn't Doxa became West Seattle in 2006, practically a whole year before the firings of 2007? Wouldn't the men who got fired in 2007 have been involved in voting Noriega into eldership in 2006? I don't know what they voted but Noriega ended up on eldership without, it seems, any serious investigation as to his qualifications or history. It may have been the good old boy network and a halo effect meant Noriega was voted in by elders at MH in 2006 at precisely the time when they should have actually asked questions about his qualifications. By now we know that obviously didn't happen. Nobody asked and nobody thought there was anything amiss.
DeleteWell, let's say I want to make a very big splash of a Church in Seattle. I need to “lift up Christ from the earth” to attract people of course, but, what kind of people? Jesus made no bones about it, He went and preached specifically to the poor and used that as one of the facts to prove who He was to John and at the beginning of His ministry. But if my purpose is to make a big splash in Seattle, well, I need a way to keep the poor “subdued” and their problems away from the general populace that I do want visible to make my “church” look good. The Gospel will attract the poor so I need a solution.
DeleteI need a man who has proven his ability to speak and promote the “bootstrap myth” well. Yes, “all we have to do to change is to pull ourselves up by our own boot straps”. Of course, in this “christian” environment so he must speak things that almost sound like doctrine. He must be able to work with the “we want these to be visible” people well, as a good friend of all. Those who are trying to perform a bootstrap maneuver he must understand how to control and when necessary oust if they are perceived as any kind of liability to the goal of the big splash.
At the time that James Noriega went through the Union Gospel Mission in Seattle the mens shelter ministries were run by people who had come through the Seattle missions own programs almost exclusively. It was much more about keeping one's position, being comfortable, getting one's ego stroked, and putting on a good show than to actually get some help to those who need it. So James rose quickly to positions of the “care” of the flock, indeed a true benefit for a man who loves the kill.
His boot licking skills, well developed in the rather corrupt environment that existed at the mens shelter at the time (the Seattle Union Gospel Mission did make the necessary changes there last I checked) came in handy to earn him the title “most humble” by Mark Driscoll. They had found their man and put him right to work making the very oppressive insult to the poor and needy that the so called “redemption groups” are today.
May the words of Jesus to the Church at Laodicea so ring in the ears of those at Mars Hill and with such terrible force that they do indeed respond and so avoid the curse.
Maybe so, but the earlier statement still doesn't add up. Petry and Meyer were ousted in favor of Noriega? What if Meyer and Petry were among the pastors who voted Noriega into eldership in 2006 a year before they got fired? See, that's the problem of the timeline. Your theory as to how and why Noriega was fast-tracked into eldership within MH does make a lot of sense it's just that it doesn't account for why Noriega was ordained within Doxa/Acts 29, at least not completely. It makes sense for Mars Hill but not necessarily for Doxa.
DeleteAnd what if the fired pastors actually backed Noriega's candidacy and didn't know about Noriega's felonies? I think the seed of your theory makes sense in some ways but doesn't account for a lot of details. If the fired pastors backed Noriega without knowing what a recent convert he was or about his felonies then they weren't just fired to make room for Noriega. So while your explanation makes sense it still doesn't account for the earlier statement that Meyer and Petry were ousted in favor of Noriega, at least not in terms of the stuff that was going on in 2006. You have an explanation that would perfectly fit a rationalization for promoting Noriega to take over what Meyer had started, though. A lot of explanations of actions during that time seemed to be ... how do I put this delicately, ad hoc post hoc.
BTW, despite my caution about certain proposals in some of these comments here, thanks for making them.
DeleteMy previous post here may have inadvertently confused two issues. Noriega was originally from Doxa via way of the Mission. The comment pointed out the obvious, that there were better qualified then at MHC to do a CD ministry. No way meant as a direct reference to Petry or Meyer; nor theorizing on whether or not they voted him in.
DeleteThe MHC West Seattle campus was originally run down structurally but the land worth tons. The small group comprised of elderly people who continued to meet there were approached by Noriega & MHC. They were pleased at the notion property being beautified and filled with young people seeking the gospel and sold it on that premise. Zoning laws for churches in Seattle made this a sweetheart of a deal for MHC. The elderly owner was promised that Driscoll would preach live there for a certain duration of time. This elderly generation had some concern or disdain for video service. Driscoll did not come anywhere close to preaching the live sermons at that locale he'd promised as part and parcel to the deal. My opinion is they lied people to their own great advantage from an asset acquisition standpoint. An quick perusal into the public records meshed with what I surmised some of the motivation for Noriega's quick rise appeared to be; as well as my personal interactions with those now out or still in.
I won't take a risk in sharing more on this rather 'side bar' issue. We know they are wealthy, we know they are corrupting the gospel. The moderators here are doing their job to make sure posters here are using intelligence in planning for their own safety legal or otherwise in relation to stories.
What I can tell you I saw with my own eyes is that their pastor(s) attacked and defamed me down to belief in my very salvation, and credibility amongst long time friends. They posted online amidst 100s of people on a social media site things they knew to be patently false out of fear that they would be exposed for rubber stamping atrocities against me and other members(who of course will not speak with me).
Churches can defame publicly humiliate us but we cannot talk? Why? Because they have a corporate veil called 501(c)3 to hide behind and are not personally liable? A covenant which is not even followed and subjects members to undefined "discipline" does not give right to harass people miles or years in the rear-view?
God alone has cornered the market on justice. I prayerfully combine the "law of the land" i.e. constitutional rights to free speech, alongside I Corinthians 6:6
I see this site which has not been in existence all that long and is gaining strength in numbers as a David against this Goliath of an unholy place. Some of us "throw our stones" under anon or pseudonyms but that does not make us cowards or liars; simply aware of the realities of the stalker tendencies of MHC and of the litigious nature of our society as a whole.
In light of the recent blog lawsuit out of Oregon, should all shut up or fear the mighty bank account of MHC? If even a few read these posts and reflect, "ah I am not alone in my Spirit of Discernment nagging me to leave...MHC is not truly a Godly place any longer" it's good.
This is what leads me to go ahead and gingerly participate here Psalms 107:2 says "let them tell their story" I rejoice in the First Amendment as well as scripture which points to not letting people be trampled.
Thanks for participating and I appreciate the clarification and discussion.
Deletehttp://dw.courts.wa.gov/
ReplyDeleteErin, I am absolutely amazed that you say the church wouldn't let you leave. Did they tie you up, imprison you? Trying to understand how you could choose to stay when you were being 'abused'.
ReplyDeleteWhen you are mentally controlled, you know what what else to do. I was stalked by pastors. I couldn't get out. They would call me all the time and have my friends completely removed themselves from me until I went back. It was the most insane mind game.
DeleteWow....this is so messed up I don't even know where to begin.
ReplyDelete